Hi !! I am a spanish bodybuider and, since 4 months, I am "in the Zone". In bodybuilding, is well-known that you have to stimulate insulin to recharge glycogen reserves after workouts. My question is: Do I have to add fats to the post-workout meal to maintain 40:30:30 percentages?, or is better eat protein+fats without fats ?? Greets from Valencia (Spain) :)

One thing for sure is you don't want to over-secrete insulin after a workout as that would inhibit growth hormone release right after your workout. It is best to have a 1 block balanced snack within 30 minutes after a workout which will help raise insulin levels slowly and then a balanced meal with 2 hours after that... You should strive for a blance of LOW GL CARBS + LEAN PROTEINS + MONO-UNSATURATED FATS at every meal and snack. So all three macronutrients every time. Pat

[quote:aae0002366="itsallaboutbalance"]One thing for sure is you don't want to over-secrete insulin after a workout [/quote:aae0002366] [color=blue:aae0002366]Just the opposite is true. The consumption of nutrients immediately post-workout is absolutely essential. It helps the body recover from your workout, replenish glycogen stores, repair muscle tissue, reduces post-workout soreness, raises testosterone and growth hormone levels, and reduces cortisol levels. The sooner nutrients are consumed and absorbed, the sooner the body can go from a catabolic state to an anabolic state. It is for this reason a liquid meal is preferred to solid food. Post-workout is the one time that high-glycemic carbs are preferred. It is vital to get the carbs to the muscle cells as quickly as possible along with a fast absorbing protein (Whey). Usually, when one thinks of high-glycemic carbs one thinks of simple sugars. However, most simple sugars would not be beneficial such as fructose, sucrose, and lactose. Dextrose and/or maltodextrin would be better. Three different carb/protein ratio recommendations I have seen are: Carbs: 0.4-0.8 grams/ kilogram of bodyweight Protein: 0.2-0.4 grams/ kilogram of bodyweight Carbs: 5 grams/ 10 pounds of bodyweight Protein: 5 grams/ 20 pounds of bodyweight Carbs: 0.25-0.50g/lb of lean body mass Protein: 0.25-0.30g/lb of lean body mass It has long been thought that fat helps to slow protein and carb absorption, however, liquid fats don't slow gastric emptying or digestion, only fats that are part of food.. At least two different papers have shown that liquid and water parts of the meal separate (which makes sense: water and oil ... ) and the fat just sits on top of the liquid, affecting nothing.[/color:aae0002366]

[color=darkred:6149e51ee2]Hi, Thanks for the interesting info re: liquid fat not slowing digestion as fat found in foods do. It may be the answer to why I stay in the Zone better with nuts than I do with oils.[/color:6149e51ee2]

[quote:dc860adc23="Slknorr"][color=darkred:dc860adc23]Hi, Thanks for the interesting info re: liquid fat not slowing digestion as fat found in foods do. It may be the answer to why I stay in the Zone better with nuts than I do with oils.[/color:dc860adc23][/quote:dc860adc23] I took to eating olives instead of olive oil in my salad. Another good reason.

trouble is, monounsaturated nuts are more expensive than olive oil (for example), oveall. but, i'll keep it in mind anyway and see if i can work a few nuts in at least part of the time. by the way sue, i tried the salsa as part of my meal, it really works very well i find, i feel full but not sleepy.raw tomatoes seem to work well too. with pot barley if i have a lot of it i get very sleepy, i'm having to limit it. but it is a bit frustrating as buying cans of salsa costs a certain amount money and i take half a cup for one block for my meals, for example, so i would end up buying a lot of it to help me feel satiated. maybe make my own salsa? probably too much work though. alexy

[quote:7a7214a19b="alexyagain2"]trouble is, monounsaturated nuts are more expensive than olive oil (for example), oveall. but, i'll keep it in mind anyway and see if i can work a few nuts in at least part of the time. by the way sue, i tried the salsa as part of my meal, it really works very well i find, i feel full but not sleepy.raw tomatoes seem to work well too. with pot barley if i have a lot of it i get very sleepy, i'm having to limit it. but it is a bit frustrating as buying cans of salsa costs a certain amount money and i take half a cup for one block for my meals, for example, so i would end up buying a lot of it to help me feel satiated. maybe make my own salsa? probably too much work though. alexy[/quote:7a7214a19b] [color=darkred:7a7214a19b]Hi, Salsa's relatively cheap where I live, espcially with the small amount needed to make a block, so I don't know what tell you. But I'm glad it keeps you in the Zone. :D[/color:7a7214a19b]

ok i'll tweak the shopping list and my meals and see what's cheapest thanks alexy

[quote:cc9ee1ab77="L'Net"][color=blue:cc9ee1ab77]Just the opposite is true. ... [/color:cc9ee1ab77][/quote:cc9ee1ab77] Just the opposite is true... So what you are saying is that you want to [b:cc9ee1ab77]over[/b:cc9ee1ab77]-secrete insulin after a workout.... Interesting L'Net..... Growth hormone and testosterone release occurs in a window of 15 to 30 minutes after anaerobic exercise (i.e. strength training). I clearly said you do not want to [b:cc9ee1ab77]over[/b:cc9ee1ab77]-secrete insulin post workout as your insulin levels will be very low and can easily be spiked too quickly if you have a high gycemic load snack or meal. This would make you [b:cc9ee1ab77]over[/b:cc9ee1ab77]-secrete insulin and the more insulin in the bloodstream, the less growth hormone will be released regardless of the intensity of your workout. This means inhibiting growth hormone release post-workout because of too much insulin in the blodstream would be counterproductive. Yes, the consumption of nutrients in that 15 to 30 minutes post-anaerobic workout is very important but making it high GL as you suggest would be counterproductive. This would go in the same line of thought as when people recommend taking your creatine with grape juice or something else very high on the Glycemic Index. Just like creatine you do need insulin [i:cc9ee1ab77]but[/i:cc9ee1ab77] it is totally not necessary and desired to produce such a high amount to have it's beneficial effects. Insulin production is very sensitive. Insulin already begins to rise alone after a workout. You want to aid your hormonal systems and get the best growth and testosterone production after an anaerobic workout and the best way to do so is to have a LOW GL BALANCED snack within that 15 to 30 minute period after your workout. Pat

uh, i think this post was for someone else - exercise hasn't been discussed here, just the cost of food, etc. Thanks. Alexy

[quote:4c80bd856c="alexyagain2"]uh, i think this post was for someone else - exercise hasn't been discussed here, just the cost of food, etc. Thanks. Alexy[/quote:4c80bd856c] Read what L'Net wrote and what the initial subject of this thread is Alexy.

noticed the previous posts AFTER i sent the post whoops alexy

Glycogen synthesis is regulated by the activity of glycogen synthase, the activity of which is enhanced post-exercise. Increasing insulin via carbohydrate ingestion post-exercise does not have any additional effect on its activity, suggesting that the stimulation of post-exercise glycogen synthesis is regulated by "contraction-mediated recruitment of glucose transporters or blood flow, not insulin."(1) I see no reason to focus on hi-GI foods for this purpose. (1) O'Gorman, Donal J. et al [i:5adf56ac3d]"Insulin and exercise differentially regulate PI3-kinase and glycogen synthase in human skeletal muscle"[/i:5adf56ac3d] Journal of Applied Physiology 89:1412-1419, 2000

OK, guys and gals, this has bothered me for awhile and I have no answer I can reconcile, so help me out. Dr. Sears says to eat after a workout to maximize hgh production, and it's best to do anerobic exercise earlier in the morning as that is when it's highest naturally. So along comes SS and SCT and they say exercise v-e-r-y infrequently and muscle is built during rest. Pat, you take 6 weeks between workouts of a given muscle! So if it takes 6 weeks to do it's thing, how can eating once after a workout or working out early one morning make a significant difference? The only answer I have is that Dr. Sears is talking about very very easy workouts, comparatively, where *building* muscle ain't gonna happen and recovery time is not an issue. What's your takes on this?

[quote:ac6ee46668="Fatboyslim"]OK, guys and gals, this has bothered me for awhile and I have no answer I can reconcile, so help me out. Dr. Sears says to eat after a workout to maximize hgh production, and it's best to do anerobic exercise earlier in the morning as that is when it's highest naturally. So along comes SS and SCT and they say exercise v-e-r-y infrequently and muscle is built during rest. Pat, you take 6 weeks between workouts of a given muscle! So if it takes 6 weeks to do it's thing, how can eating once after a workout or working out early one morning make a significant difference? The only answer I have is that Dr. Sears is talking about very very easy workouts, comparatively, where *building* muscle ain't gonna happen and recovery time is not an issue. What's your takes on this?[/quote:ac6ee46668] FBS (;-)), only about 25% of HGH release occurs right after a workout. 75% of HGH happens when you sleep. I don't know how else to say it other than with percentages even though it may not be scientifically accurate... What I'm trying to say is that the most of the HGH release happens when you sleep. That's why when you want to build good muscle it is very important to get deep and good nights of sleep on an regular basis in order to help in the new muscle growth and repair process which also happens mostly during sleep.... The combo of LOW GL snack post-workout and restful nights of sleep is where it's at ladies and gentlemen. Pat

[quote:72c9f6ee47="Scott"]Glycogen synthesis is regulated by the activity of glycogen synthase, the activity of which is enhanced post-exercise. Increasing insulin via carbohydrate ingestion post-exercise does not have any additional effect on its activity, suggesting that the stimulation of post-exercise glycogen synthesis is regulated by "contraction-mediated recruitment of glucose transporters or blood flow, not insulin."(1) I see no reason to focus on hi-GI foods for this purpose. (1) O'Gorman, Donal J. et al [i:72c9f6ee47]"Insulin and exercise differentially regulate PI3-kinase and glycogen synthase in human skeletal muscle"[/i:72c9f6ee47] Journal of Applied Physiology 89:1412-1419, 2000[/quote:72c9f6ee47] You changed your post for a highly technical one to say the same thing... cool ;-) (I caught the one you wrote before you erased it :-D) Pat

[quote:54b6de1364="itsallaboutbalance"][quote:54b6de1364="L'Net"][color=blue:54b6de1364]Just the opposite is true. ... [/color:54b6de1364][/quote:54b6de1364] Just the opposite is true... So what you are saying is that you want to [b:54b6de1364]over[/b:54b6de1364]-secrete insulin after a workout.... [/quote:54b6de1364] Yes. Arguably the most important meals are breakfast (to halt overnight catabolism) and post-workout. Post workout nutrition is a place I see lifters making major mistakes. I've watched guys at my gym finish their workouts and hang out talking for another 30-60. There is a window of opportunity where nutrients are more effectively absorbed after a workout. By the hour mark, you've already lost some of the benefit. In my opinion, you should take something with you to drink right after your workout. About the only time that high GI foods are ideal is immediately after a workout, where high blood insulin levels are of benefit. Consuming a high GI carb (1-1.5 g/kg) with some protein (about 1/3rd as much protein as carbs) right after workout helps with recovery and promotes better growth.

[quote:1c80ee1efa="itsallaboutbalance"] You changed your post for a highly technical one to say the same thing... cool ;-) (I caught the one you wrote before you erased it :-D)[/quote:1c80ee1efa] A constant struggle to post information that explains or references the science behind my posts vs. a post that benefits the greatest audience. :)