Are there any bodybuilders out there who follow the Zone diet? I'm curious as to your results following the Zone as opposed to other diets. I have been following the Zone diet since January and consequently I have been eating far less then recommended by the mainstream bodybuilding literature which has prevailed for the past 20 years or so. Although I cut my caloric intake nearly in half when switching to the zone I have not lost any lean body mass. I am still concerned however that some modifications to the basic zone diet plan may be necessary to accommodate the needs of a bodybuilder - I know DR Sears recommends an additional protein block per day. Should any considerations beyond that be necessary?

Dropping a carb is certainly a great way to tap into excess body fat when body building. Don't forget that when you drop a carb you need to add suffiicient monounsaturated fat calories in to replace the dropped carb. That you have not lost any LBM is proof that you are consuming enough protein for your requirements.

[quote:cba0d17334="a_blacker"] That you have not lost any LBM is proof that you are consuming enough protein for your requirements.[/quote:cba0d17334] Not necessarilyt. The goal of a bodybuilder is not merely to maintain existing LMB, but to increase muscle mass as much as humanly possible. What's more, bodbybuilders want to gain a large amount of mass in a short time period... a pound per week, often more, is typical during mass-building phases. I doubt that such dramatic gains can be achieved on anything but a high-calorie diet, which the Zone certainly isn't

I’ve never known any drug free bodybuilders who could gain 1 pound of muscle per week. In fact I’ve known few experienced bodybuilders who could gain more then 1 pound of LBM per month. Most of us settle for 5-10 pounds in LBM per year depending on how close we are to our genetic limit. Those new to bodybuilding obviously gain at a much faster rate. My first year I gained about 20 pounds of LBM and I wasn’t even eating properly. In mastering the zone dr sears recommends adding an extra protein block per day to increase muscle mass. Since 1 pound of muscle contains about 136 grams of protein Sears recommends adding 1 extra block per day (7 grams per block x 30 days = 210 grams). In theory this should be more then enough, but I’m wondering if this works in practice. I’ve been bodybuilding for 6 years and my LBM is around 185 pounds. I’m currently consuming 25 protein blocks per day (185/7 x.9 + 1). I have not lost any LBM however I have not gained much LBM either – I estimate a gain of less then 1 pound of LBM since January. On my previous higher calorie diets I had been gaining on average 3-5 pounds of LBM per year. I’m unsure if this is because I am closer to my genetic potential or if I am not eating enough now to fuel a faster rate of growth. Any thoughts?

Welcome to the boards, Flip. You sound like a massive guy who's been lifting for a while, and you know what you're talking about. I should look to you for advice rather than offer it, so forgive me if I seem condescending. But I'd answer your questions this way: The body will grow muscle when it needs to. Muscles simply grow, primarily during sleep, to repair the microdamage suffered during exercise. (Muscles do not simply grow bigger because you eat a lot of protein powder.) The nutrients required for the healing and growth process are found in the body and delivered to the damaged tissue; the energy for this process is generated by burning stored body fat. In other words, muscles are made by what's already in the body, not by what extra food we put in it. While eating more calories is necessary to replace the nutrients used to build muscle mass, any additional calories should be eaten within Zone ratios. Super Health is not a matter directly of what elements go into our body; it is a matter of body chemistry, of maintaining a balance of insulin and glucagon. Don't make the mistake of thinking that putting extra protein into your body translates to more muscle mass. That idea is what Ray Audette calls the [b:e83f83bf47]thermodynamic[/b:e83f83bf47] view of the body as a machine, "the calories-in/calories-out approach to human physiology and nutrition." ([u:e83f83bf47]NeanderThin[/u:e83f83bf47], p 12) This approach is wrong. Add extra calories to your diet as needed. But keep everything you eat within the Zone formula. Blood glucose spikes will result even when consuming large amounts of pure protein. This will make it impossible to maintain proper eicosanoid balance.

I had no idea you were from the Northcoast!

<<I have not lost any LBM however I have not gained much LBM either – I estimate a gain of less then 1 pound of LBM since January. On my previous higher calorie diets I had been gaining on average 3-5 pounds of LBM per year. I’m unsure if this is because I am closer to my genetic potential or if I am not eating enough now to fuel a faster rate of growth.>> There could be many reasons why progress may not be optimal (nutritional, genetic potential, training (overtraining), adaptation). Some of the best info I've found is at www.i-a-r-t.com

[quote:fe82667715="Flip"]I’ve never known any drug free bodybuilders who could gain 1 pound of muscle per week.[/quote:fe82667715] Such rapid gains are definitely possible... bodybuilders who I've communicated with have told me they've gained 5 lean pounds in a month, although admittedly most of them probably achieved that progress though drug use.

[quote:ab824b374d] The body will grow muscle when it needs to. Muscles simply grow, primarily during sleep, to repair the microdamage suffered during exercise. (Muscles do not simply grow bigger because you eat a lot of protein powder.) The nutrients required for the healing and growth process are found in the body and delivered to the damaged tissue; the energy for this process is generated by burning stored body fat. In other words, muscles are made by what's already in the body, not by what extra food we put in it. [/quote:ab824b374d] Sounds logical in theory, doesn't it? I'd agree completely, if not for the contradictory experiences of so many bodybuilders. Most report that they simply cannot increase their LBM appreciably unless they are in a state of positive energy balance, and even if they can, their progress is sluggish. Keep in mind that we are talking about people who are near their genetic potential, not common exercisers [quote:ab824b374d] Don't make the mistake of thinking that putting extra protein into your body translates to more muscle mass.[/quote:ab824b374d] That is not the implication. For the most part, it translates into more FAT mass. [quote:ab824b374d] That idea is what Ray Audette calls the [b:ab824b374d]thermodynamic[/b:ab824b374d] view of the body as a machine, "the calories-in/calories-out approach to human physiology and nutrition." ([u:ab824b374d]NeanderThin[/u:ab824b374d], p 12) This approach is wrong.[/quote:ab824b374d] How do you know? If you are repeating the opinion of some authority, then say so, but do not propose to have the answers to controversial questions that have not been answered conclusively by ANYBODY. I also believe that the "thermodynamic" approach is wrong for the most part, but I am not going to make claims that I cannot prove. [quote:ab824b374d] Add extra calories to your diet as needed. But keep everything you eat within the Zone formula. Blood glucose spikes will result even when consuming large amounts of pure protein. This will make it impossible to maintain proper eicosanoid balance.[/quote:ab824b374d] Is eicosanoid balance the principal concern of bodybuilders?

[b:34bf697760]Brian[/b:34bf697760], I chose not to comment on your baiting responses to Flip, as past experience has taught me you would parse my post and derisivley comment on each line. You chose to do that anyway. My response was addressed to [b:34bf697760]Flip[/b:34bf697760], and I attempted to share an admittedly philosophical approach to nutrition I have found helpful. You chose to demonstrate once again your confrontational childishness, videlicet: [quote:34bf697760]If you are repeating the opinion of some authority, then say so, but do not propose to have the answers to controversial questions that have not been answered conclusively by ANYBODY. [/quote:34bf697760] Umm, if naming the source of my support by author, book and page number is not a sufficient citation for you, I don't know what would be. How about these?: "Eat a Zone-favorable snack before you retire...That snack will set in motion the hormonal foundation to allow maximum secretion of growth hormone." (Sears, ETZ, p 62) "Being out of the Zone means you're making too much insulin and not enough good eicosanoids. This means your anaerobic exercise program is less likely to do what it's intended to do: build muscle and trim fat." (Ibid., p 63) You again: [quote:34bf697760]Is eicosanoid balance the principal concern of bodybuilders?[/quote:34bf697760] I do not believe I am alone in understanding that it is exactly Dr. Sears' contention that eicosanoid balance [i:34bf697760]should be[/i:34bf697760] everyone's primary concern. [quote:34bf697760]I am not going to make claims that I cannot prove.[/quote:34bf697760] You have long ago proven that you are so much better than the rest of us "common exercisers".

nil

[quote:650229d311] I chose not to comment on your baiting responses to Flip, as past experience has taught me you would parse my post and derisivley comment on each line. You chose to do that anyway.[/quote:650229d311] BS..... your post was not addressed to me specifically, but it was obvious that your intent was to rebut the information from MY original post about the need for a high-calorie diet. You WERE commenting on my "baiting" response to Flip, but you chose to do it in an indirect, evasive way. [quote:650229d311] Umm, if naming the source of my support by author, book and page number is not a sufficient citation for you, I don't know what would be. How about these?: "Eat a Zone-favorable snack before you retire...That snack will set in motion the hormonal foundation to allow maximum secretion of growth hormone." (Sears, ETZ, p 62) "Being out of the Zone means you're making too much insulin and not enough good eicosanoids. This means your anaerobic exercise program is less likely to do what it's intended to do: build muscle and trim fat." (Ibid., p 63)[/quote:650229d311] It was obvious that I was referring to your statement that "(the thermodynamic) approach is wrong", which you stated matter-of-factly without any indication that it was only your personal opinion or the opinion of someone else. Now you are evading repsonsibility by posting references that are totally unrelated to the specific comment that I took issue with. [quote:650229d311] I do not believe I am alone in understanding that it is exactly Dr. Sears' contention that eicosanoid balance [i:650229d311]should be[/i:650229d311] everyone's primary concern.[/quote:650229d311] For HEALTH purposes, yes, but we are not talking about health in this context. What is ideal for optimum health is not necessarily consistent with what is ideal for a specific endeavor such as bodybuilding. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't -- I don't know much about the effect of eicosanoids on muscle hypertrophy (any references, Scott?). What I do know is that most advanced bodybuilders report that they have to maintain a high-caloric intake in order to gain muscle mass quickly, which as we know generally results in elevated insulin levels. Additionally, many bodybuilders deliberately spike insulin at certain times, as well as take insulin INJECTIONS as part of their drug regimenes... these practices run contrary to the Zone principals, yet many boidybuilders are very successful with them. This indicates to me that, while I believe that the Zone Diet is excellent for general health as well as for many kinds of athletes, there are a handfull of exceptions. The Zone may not be appropriate for every application, including maximizing muscle mass. [quote:650229d311] You have long ago proven that you are so much better than the rest of us "common exercisers".[/quote:650229d311] THIS THREAD IS SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE NEEDS OF AN ADVANCED EXERCISER! Is it really so arrogant and consescending of me to suggestt that an advanced bodybuilder's nutritional requirements may differ from those of the average person? Never, in any of my posts, have I implied that "advanced exercisers" are superior to "common exercisers"; nor have I ever made any claims about my own training. You are simply changing the subject entirely, making personal remarks and trying to make me out to be a jerk -- grasping at straws, essentially. You just can't stick to the subject matter and have an honest debate. My guess it that you will now evade my response and the original subject entirely, citing that you choose not to respond to someone so confrontational and childish as myself.

:roll: *sigh*

[quote:cf2bbb1fbf="adam_h"]:roll: *sigh*[/quote:cf2bbb1fbf] It appears the waters are shark infested White Light

We're gonna need a bigger boat.

[quote:1822e85a4c="adam_h"]We're gonna need a bigger boat.[/quote:1822e85a4c] Hi Adam, Not all water ways contain sharks. Sharks can not survive in Fresh Clear Water White Light

[quote:bd5d1d1963="adam_h"]We're gonna need a bigger boat.[/quote:bd5d1d1963] Hey Adam, what does this have to do with the subject of nutrition for bodybuilding?

White Light, I read you. I'm on my way over. BrianG, if your Promethean attitude didn't betray your youth, your inability to recognize a JAWS reference does.

Let's recount what has taken place in the course of this thread: 1) I state that maximum muscle hypertrophy requires a high caloric intake. 2) You post a message with the obvious intent of criticizing my previous statement, but you disguise it as a "helpful" post for someone else rather than addressing me personally. 3) I respond objectively to your criticisms of my post in a non-confrontational manner, and do so without making any personal remarks. 4) You evade the subject matter entirely, saying that your post was not addressed to me and failing to even respond to a single point that I made on the subject of nutrition for bodybuilders. Instead, you resort to changing the subject by imputing me to statements I never made ("you're so much better than all us common exercisers") and calling me "childish". 5) I defend myself against your attack on my personality, again without making any pesonal remarks, and end my post by challenging you to actually respond to the points in my post and stop evading the argument. 6) You reply - "sigh", completely evading the argument as I predicted 7) I ask you what that has to do with the subject of nutrition for bodybuilders. 8. You respond exclusively with personal remarks about my "youth" (I'm not sure how you purport to know anything about my age) and my "promethian" attitude. ......and I'M the one who's childish?

Uh, yes.

I have used the Zone for about 7 years or so and lifted for too long to remember (must be around 15 years). I have only maintained LBM and lost fat or built muscle and fat. NEVER built muscle and lost fat at the same time. Here is what works for me (and I have tried every combination!). Set protein at 1 gram per pound of LBM, add carbs to Zone ratios (.75) and AT LEAST double your fat intake. Keep adding fat until gaining. If you want to build maximum muscle you have to expect some fat gain. Of course, your training needs to be good too. A pound a week (of muscle) or more is do-able, even for advanced. Try reading here. [url] www. hypertrophy-specific.com[/url]

I lift weights 4 to 5 times a week. These are very intense and short sessions. I'm doing much better on the zone diet, no more overtraining and so on. The fact is that I don't put on much LBM. My body fat as dropped and my total weight has remained unchanged. My strenght has significantly improved though. I get extra calories from fat.

Hi everybody-
I am a bodybuilder, 2 months out of competition, and began my cut about 2 months ago. I am following the zone for my cut except i took out about 2 carb blocks for my night meal. This plan has been working just great for me, as i have lost a good 10 pounds (10 to go until 5% bf) and my strength and muscle measurements are actually increasing!! I may end up doing something like the zone for my bulk next year. So i can definately say the zone works for me. I recommend you expirament with it... you may have to make some tweaks as i have, maybe reducing your carbs by a little amount. Good luck and let me know how its going for you - Alex

Congrats on your progress!