There is a tab on the fats table that you can click on, and the table will expand out so you can see the detailed info.

CranberryCat

Corticosteroids are the most powerful pain relievers knocking out all eicosanoids, “good” and “bad.” Aspirin and other NSAID’s affects a more limited number of eicosanoids (only prostaglandins and thromboxanes) knocking out the bad eicosanoids at a faster rate than it knocks out the good.
Low dose aspirin (81mg.) will not have a negative effect on eicosanoids . Dr. Sears has suggested that 1/2 of a baby aspirin approx. 40mg. daily with fish oil creates a new group of beneficial eicosanoids called resolvins. To learn more please search www.drsears.com using the key word "resolvins." Here’s one link - http://www.drsears.com/SearchResult...=resolvins
Of course keeping your AA/EPA within the ideal range (http://www.drsears.com/ArticlePrevi...ault.aspx) with your diet is ideal. However, as inexpensive insurance one may supplement with ½ a baby aspirin along with their omega 3’s.

Thanks for the reply, but it doesn't really answer the question...

My question focused on NSAIDS, not on corticosteroids or aspirin. It seems that the literature sets aspirin apart from other NSAIDS (like Ibuprofen). So, am I destroying all of my eicosanoids (good and bad) by taking Ibuprofen daily (longterm)? Exactly how dramatic of an effect is it? If it isn't a huge effect, then should I be worried about this at all?

I agree, the omega-3 blood testing would probably be helpful... funding for the test to be done is the issue, as my DH is out of a job currently, and my cash is slim due to the unexpected expenses from my recent dog bite (hoping to be reimbursed for that, but it won't happen tomorrow).

Hi Tech Support - you mentioned that Corticosteroids knock out all eicosanoids, “good” and “bad.” What about a local cortisone shot? Since the inflammation/pain relief is limited to a local area, wouldn't the destruction of good eicosanoids also be limited and possibly not have a bad effect on the body, as a whole?

Larry

a local cortisone shot will be limited to that area and wouldn’t knock out as many good eicosanoids. It would have a minimal effect on eicosanoids.

So any updates for me?

nothing further at this time Cran.

Just keep me updated, even if there is nothing to report. Hearing something regarding the status of my question is better than hearing nothing at all :)

Cran.. The question was answered. (see earlier post from tech support)... Here is a bit more and this is all I have for you..

Aspirin and NSAIDs like Advil (an ibuprofen) don’t discriminate between the specific forms of the COX 1 & 2 enzymes and therefore side effects are associated with their long term use.
However, Ibuprofen is relatively mild and somewhat short-lived when compared with aspirin.
Always consult with your physician

Thanks--your previous post focused on Aspirin and other NSAIDS but then most of it talked about aspirin. Zone literature seems to separate aspirin as being a beneficial NSAID, as opposed to other NSAIDs which apparently have an effect on ALL eicosanoids, disrupting the good as well as the bad eicosanoids... that is why I asked the question...

Honestly, this answer does not support what is printed in the books... so I am still kind of "lost" here. Will go back and read the chapters, but looks like I may have to take this to a higher level.

OK knock yourself out. :-)

Well, I don't think I am going to knock myself out, but there just seems to be a discrepencey here between the Zone literature and what you are stating. It has been documented that this question has come up in the past, and has never been answered clearly. I'm kind of a "Nancy Drew" kind of person.

Here is the question again, as originally asked (thought I would post it again, just to refresh everyone exactly what my question is-and will keep everyone updated on what I hear back, if anything):

I normally take an NSAID, usually Ibuprofen but at times I take Naproxen, at a fairly high dose to help with an old knee injury and a more acute problem--plantar fasciitis. I have been taking it for years, usually just in the morning, right along with my fish oil and calcium/vit D supplements, usually more of a preventative measure. I could probably do fine without it, not sure, never really tried to go without it.

In "Enter the Zone" (ETZ), chapter 12 discusses eicosanoids. On page 132, the first paragraph starts out by making a statement about NSAIDS knocking out all of the eicosanoids, assuming all eicosanoids are bad. However, since some eicosanoids are good to have, it got me to thinking about NSAIDS, and how big of a role taking an NSAID like Ibuprofen plays in eicosanoid balance.

So my question, is my daily intake of NSAIDs playing a big role in my eicosanoid balance? If it is altering the balance, then is it possible that I could improve my Zone outcomes by eliminating NSAIDs?

Just doing my own research, I found this article on the Inflammation Research Foundation web page, which kind of addresses my question, but unfortunately it is not put in terms that I am able to understand. I need more of a layman's answer. But, here it is:

12. Pharmacological Targets for
Reducing Inflammation
12.1. Anti-Inflammatory Drug Targets. If the hypothesis is
correct that obesity is caused by silent inflammation, then
modulating molecular targets of anti-inflammatory drugs
would hold promise. Anti-inflammatory drugs remain the
foundation of medical treatment of pain caused by acute
inflammation. The relief of acute pain requires immediate
action with drugs. The more acute the pain, the more
powerful the anti-inflammatory drug that has to be used.
Unfortunately, the more powerful the anti-inflammatory
drug, the greater the side effects. Our working hypothesis is
that the obesity and the metabolic consequences of obesity
are caused by chronic low-level inflammation or silent
inflammation. Nonetheless the molecular targets of antiinflammatory
drugs are the same for anti-inflammatory
nutrition.
6 Journal of Obesity
The classical pathways of anti-inflammatory drugs have
been focused on the COX and LOX pathways of eicosanoid
production. Inhibitors of the COX enzymes, such as aspirin
and nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs), have
different targets. Aspirin is a suicide inhibitor of the
PGH2 synthase enzyme that is the rate-limiting step of
the formation of pro-inflammatory eicosanoids. NSAIDs,
on the other hand, are competitive inhibitors of various
enzymes involved in the generation of pro-inflammatory
prostaglandins. However, neither of these drugs has much
effect on the LOX pathways that generates leukotrienes.
Corticosteroids inhibit both the COX and LOX pathways by
inhibiting the release of AA from the phospholipids in the
cell’s membranes.

Very interesting, I have already received a reply from Dave Shreck on the NSAID question that I had (thanks Dave!). He actually said some similar things in his response that techie said, but in a way that related more to my situation and in a way that was understandable to a lay person. Some of the same information, but with explanation built into it. I have dealt with Dave in the past, and he has always been great at taking the science and bringing it down to earth. As I understand it, he and Barry Sears have been partners in the Zone for a long time. I respect him greatly.

I could copy the text of the email, but my mouse is not working at the present time (UGH) so will try to summarize it here. If I think of it, I will copy/paste it tomorrow if I am on a different laptop (someone remind me if you are interested).

First of all, acute pain is not an issue. Taking an NSAID for a few days won't have a longterm effect on eicosanoid balance, because it is short-term and one can restore eicosanoid balance quickly after discontinuing use (he didn't say this directly in the email, but this is my understanding of how acute versus chronic treatment differs, and the fact that Ibuprofen is short-lived).

He stated that Naproxen is a powerful NSAID. Corticosteroids are the most powerful, but my interpretation of what he said is the Naproxen is close behind. I have been taking Naproxen for probably 1-2 years! If NSAID use is required, it sounds like Ibuprofen is probably preferred due to the fact that it is short-acting and affects a more limited number of eicosanoids. And, of course, Aspirin does not have a negative impact on eicosanoid balance.

He stated that I am on the horns of a dilemma! Well, it is a good thing that I found this out now. I am going to stop using Naproxen and stick with Ibuprofen for pain relief, work on weaning off of it and upping my dose of fish oil to cover the chronic pain issues.

One good thing came out of my recent "dog bite" issue... I had the spare time to go searching for something and came up with this while looking for something else. Also, because of the dog bite, I have pampered my foot, the same one that has the plantar fasciitis. I have not felt any heel pain at all! So, basically, the dog bite cured my plantar fasciitis LOL! Now I just have to manage my knee problem, and then I will be all set.

Great summary. Thanks. I thought aspirin destroyed both the bad ecosanoids and the good, though, just like ibuprophen, etc. Except for the 1/2 baby aspirin taken with fish oil that produces special anti-inflammatory ecosanoids.

I will post the email as written later, the text is from Dave but apparently Barry's words.

Sure is nice to have a working mouse! LOL

Here is the actual response that I received via email from Dave Shreck:


Dr. Sears appreciates your email, here are his comments.

Taking NSAIDs on a daily basis may affect one’s hormonal balance. Too many “bad” eicosanoids may cause some of the symptoms listed on the eicosanoid status report (ESR). Icon link to the ESR is at: http://drsears.com/Resources/tabid/...fault.aspx

Naproxen is a powerful NSAID that is a prescription drug in most countries due to it risks and adverse effects.

Corticosteroids are the most powerful pain relievers knocking out all eicosanoids, “good” and “bad.” Aspirin and other NSAID’s (Ibuprofen) affect a more limited number of eicosanoids (prostaglandins and thromboxanes) knocking out the bad eicosanoids at a faster rate than it knocks out the good. However, Ibuprofen is relatively mild and somewhat short-lived compared with aspirin.

You may consider low dose aspirin (81mg.) which will not have a negative effect on eicosanoids . Dr. Sears has suggested that 1/2 of a baby aspirin approx. 40mg. daily with fish oil creates a new group of beneficial eicosanoids called resolvins. To learn more please search www.drsears.com using the key word "resolvins." Here’s one link - http://www.drsears.com/SearchResult...=resolvins

Of course keeping your AA/EPA within the ideal range (http://www.drsears.com/ArticlePrevi...ault.aspx) with your diet is important.

You are on the horns of a dilemma, take NSAIDs and compromise your health to relieve the pain or make other adjustments. Working with your physician consider adding in more omega 3’s while you cut back on the NSAIDs. Other suggestions that my provide relief; physical therapy, orthotics, stretching the plantar fascia and Achilles with a splint during the night, and mild electrical stimulation to hasten healing.

We hope you find this information helpful.

OKay, finally, a thorough response!
And one worth keeping for reference.

Yes, definitely. It was amazing to me how many times this had been asked, and had never really been answered well. I am really glad to learn more about Naproxen, and even though it has worked well for my pain, it was probably not helping me much in terms of my eicosanoid balance.

What I understand now, is to use NSAIDS like Ibuprofen and Aspirin for acute pain, and work more on controlling chronic issues with fish oil dosing. The Aspirin is good as a daily dose, but the baby aspirin dosage size is probably not enough to control pain, but perhaps will see if the combination of that and the fish oil controls things better.

Since my heel pain is now gone, I really just have to work on the knee, which is a chronic issue for me.

And, if this all pans out the way that I think it will, getting in the Zone might be a whole lot easier if I am not unknowingly knocking out all of my eicosanoids!

Wow ! I just saw this.(read below) So thrilled to see our staff being consistent across our web-sites.

Tech-Support answer

Aspirin and NSAIDs like Advil (an ibuprofen) don’t discriminate between the specific forms of the COX 1 & 2 enzymes and therefore side effects are associated with their long term use.
However, Ibuprofen is relatively mild and somewhat short-lived when compared with aspirin.
Always consult with your physician

Corticosteroids are the most powerful pain relievers knocking out all eicosanoids, “good” and “bad.” Aspirin and other NSAID’s affects a more limited number of eicosanoids (only prostaglandins and thromboxanes) knocking out the bad eicosanoids at a faster rate than it knocks out the good.
Low dose aspirin (81mg.) will not have a negative effect on eicosanoids . Dr. Sears has suggested that 1/2 of a baby aspirin approx. 40mg. daily with fish oil creates a new group of beneficial eicosanoids called resolvins. To learn more please search www.drsears.com using the key word "resolvins." Here’s one link - http://www.drsears.com/SearchResult...=resolvins
Of course keeping your AA/EPA within the ideal range (http://www.drsears.com/ArticlePrevi...ault.aspx) with your diet is ideal. However, as inexpensive insurance one may supplement with ½ a baby aspirin along with their omega 3’s.





[quote]
Posted By cranberrycat on 27 Jul 2012 02:43 PM
Sure is nice to have a working mouse! LOL

Here is the actual response that I received via email from Dave Shreck:


Dr. Sears appreciates your email, here are his comments.

Taking NSAIDs on a daily basis may affect one’s hormonal balance. Too many “bad” eicosanoids may cause some of the symptoms listed on the eicosanoid status report (ESR). Icon link to the ESR is at: http://drsears.com/Resources/tabid/...fault.aspx

Naproxen is a powerful NSAID that is a prescription drug in most countries due to it risks and adverse effects.

Corticosteroids are the most powerful pain relievers knocking out all eicosanoids, “good” and “bad.” Aspirin and other NSAID’s (Ibuprofen) affect a more limited number of eicosanoids (prostaglandins and thromboxanes) knocking out the bad eicosanoids at a faster rate than it knocks out the good. However, Ibuprofen is relatively mild and somewhat short-lived compared with aspirin.

You may consider low dose aspirin (81mg.) which will not have a negative effect on eicosanoids . Dr. Sears has suggested that 1/2 of a baby aspirin approx. 40mg. daily with fish oil creates a new group of beneficial eicosanoids called resolvins. To learn more please search www.drsears.com using the key word "resolvins." Here’s one link - http://www.drsears.com/SearchResult...=resolvins

Of course keeping your AA/EPA within the ideal range (http://www.drsears.com/ArticlePrevi...ault.aspx) with your diet is important.

You are on the horns of a dilemma, take NSAIDs and compromise your health to relieve the pain or make other adjustments. Working with your physician consider adding in more omega 3’s while you cut back on the NSAIDs. Other suggestions that my provide relief; physical therapy, orthotics, stretching the plantar fascia and Achilles with a splint during the night, and mild electrical stimulation to hasten healing.

We hope you find this information helpful.

[/quote]

Perhaps consistent, but there were a few holes with regard to the info that was initially posted... and missing a piece of info specifically regarding Ibuprofen (techie's post focused on aspirin).

Since the posting of the email response, I did get some further individualized feedback with regard to my original question, without the obvious copy/pasting. :)

I am just happy that you got your answer in the form you needed too; to understand the information.. That is what is important

I am very happy with the end result, as well!

Since the original posting on this thread and the subsequent responses here and the emails that I received, I had decided to cut out NSAIDS for routine use entirely, and use Ibuprofen for acute pain only. I have also been entertaining the idea of starting the baby aspirin on a daily basis, but this would likely not be for pain control, but more for good eicosanoid balance. I had been using Naproxen on a daily basis, prior to the dog bite!!! Which, after reading the emails, seems like it was definitely NOT helping my Zone efforts.

My original strategy was to do a AA/EPA test before stopping the NSAIDS to see where I was at currently, but since finances were an issue, I just decided to go ahead with the plan and stop the NSAIDS. Going forward from here, I will eventually do a blood test, but will give it a month off of the NSAIDS and on my current dose of fish oil. Surprisingly, not having a daily dose of NSAIDs has not had a negative impact, my heel pain has not been an issue, and just the usual soreness in my knee (chronic pain from old injury). The way I feel now, I would not be compelled to make any major changes in fish oil dosing, unless the AA/EPA test comes back with results that indicate changes needed.

Still, since finances are an issue, I will be holding off on blood testing until I can afford it, and if the pain issues become more chronic, I may consider upping the fish oil, but hopefully I can hold off on that until I can establish where I am at right now.

Helpful thread. Just thought I'd add my experience as somehow who manages a congenitally bad hip. A long, long time ago I found that the strict adherence to the zone was much more beneficial for pain and function than NSAID's. Now I never ever take NSAID's, in spite of having quite a bit of pain, as I can really feel the negative effects they have on the "zone feeling" and soft tissue healing in general (many surgeons recommend not using them post surgery for this reason.)

If I have severe pain that interferes with sleep, I now prefer an agent that acts "centrally" (e.g., cyclobenzaprine, Tramadol) for very short-term use.

Another tidbut, I believe complications from long-term NSAID use is one of the leading causes of death in the U.S.--I would definitely stay away from them.

Also, it's striking how much of the information in the original zone book (which is what I still use as a reference) is valid and relevant today. (General public is just starting to accept idea that elevated insulin levels is behind obesity epidemic.)