While looking for something else, I came across something interesting that I had not recalled seeing before. In "Enter the Zone" (ETZ), chapter 12 discusses eicosanoids. On page 132, the first paragraph starts out by making a statement about NSAIDS knocking out all of the eicosanoids, assuming all eicosanoids are bad. However, since some eicosanoids are good to have, it got me to thinking about NSAIDS, and how big of a role taking an NSAID like Ibuprofen plays in eicosanoid balance.

I normally take an NSAID, usually Ibuprofen but at times I take Naproxen, at a fairly high dose to help with an old knee injury and a more acute problem--plantar fasciitis. I have been taking it for years, usually just in the morning, right along with my fish oil and calcium/vit D supplements, usually more of a preventative measure. I could probably do fine without it, not sure, never really tried to go without it.

During all of the time that I have been Zoning, I will admit that it is not always easy for me to get in or stay in the Zone, despite doing everything else just right with controlling the diet and the other elements that are under my control. This recent review of ETZ raised the question, is my daily intake of NSAIDs playing a big role in my eicosanoid balance? If it is altering the balance, then is it possible that I could improve my Zone outcomes by eliminating NSAIDs? Is the information that I was reading in ETZ (the oldest book in the Zone series) even relevant anymore? (must ask this question because there is some info in there that has been updated).

Any thoughts?

w2ow, thats a great question. i`m very interested in this too!

sarah

After I posted the question, I went to AIZ and ORxZ to read more. Both suggest the same thing regarding NSAIDs, although it is also suggested that NSAIDs can be used for acute pain, but overall suggesting that chronic use will decrease good as well as bad eicosanoids.

There is so much to learn about all of this, and I don't know why this never hit me as a relevant question before? I also did a search in the forums and discovered that there has been previous discussions on this topic, as well (I have even participated in those discussions, so it blows my mind that I had forgotten this important piece of the puzzle).

I have also had much assistance from other Zone experts to try to find MY missing piece of the puzzle, and this issue never came up. But, would anyone even think about asking about it? The issue is not covered in great detail, it did take a lot of searching to find it.

Here's my thought/questions to ponder... if I continue to take NSAIDs, am I just throwing money out of the window by taking fish oil? Am I undoing all that I thought I was doing? Is the elimination of NSAIDs going to be my key factor that will boost my reaching and staying in the Zone, having always had issues with hunger and carb sensitivity, and slower than expected fat loss? What about Zone foods? I trialed them, gave them a fair shot, and was not impressed by my results. Is it fair to assume that perhaps something else was in play, i.e. NSAIDs?

At this point, I am currently taking Ibuprofen due to the dog bite, I might be able to tolerate going without it, and just kick up the fish oil, since the pain is not really acute any longer, but rather a milder ongoing issue, and really has more to do with inflammation than the acute injury. (since I already took Ibuprofen today, will not take any more on this day and perhaps start some experimentation tomorrow-I imagine that there are some 1/2 life issues with regard to the ibuprofen as well as beefing up the fish oil, so any thoughts on how to bridge this gap would be helpful, too).

Most likely you could lower or maybe even eliminate your NSAID dose with stricter adherence to the Zone diet to further reduce inflammation and a switch to Omega Rx at the correct dose for your level of AA/EPA (you have mentioned here many times you are not the strictest with diet). I doubt your higher level of sensitivity to carbohydrate is related to NSAIDs.

I have been strict with diet, and I am taking the correct amount of fish oil. There have been times in the past and more currently that I have done EVERYTHING in the right way, but still had difficulty, still struggled. It is an ongoing issue, one that I have basically just lived with (because the alternative is much worse, turning away from the Zone is not where I should be going).

Lets take all of the subjectivity out of the question and ponder the original issue... what effect does an ongoing dosage of NSAIDs have on one's eicosanoid balance? Is it possible for one to truly achieve the Zone if he/she is taking a daily dose of NSAIDS for an extended time? (from what I have been reading recently, my gut says NO, it is not possible, but would really love to hear some objective and insightful discussion).

All Fish Oils are not credited equally. I would suggest you switch back to OmegaRX and add Polythenol XT and remove NSAIDS.

In addition to my previous suggestions and those Tech posted, I'd also suggest eating as close to a vegan version of the Zone as you can and add Sea Health Plus. A vegan diet will further reduce omega 6 fat and AA intake, which will reduce your levels of inflammation. SHP contains anti-inflammatory polyphenols (not all polyphenols are ant-inflammatory). It has a synergistic effect when taken together with Omega RX, and because you reduce carbohydrate intake. Keep in mind that because you reduce your carbohydrate intake by 1/3, due of your carbohydrate sensitivity, you are short on polyphenol intake as compared to Zone recommendations.

On a related topic, and an interesting note to add, very small amounts of an NSAID (1/2 baby aspirin) have been found beneficial when taken with fish oil. You can read more about it in Zone books (AIZ, I think it's in). Look for the passage explaining about the discovery of aspirin triggered epi-lipoxins.

this is a very interesting thread.

Thank you for the suggestions on what to do. It didn't really answer the question that I asked, but it does confirm what I was thinking about my approach.

I am not able to afford the higher cost of SHP, let alone the higher cost of the fish oil. I don't want to write it off as a possibility, though.

I am, however, thinking about the possibility of doing an omega-3 test. Since I have already been taking fish oil, and have questions on the effect of the NSAIDs, I am considering taking a blood test NOW to see where I currently am. Then, make some changes and do another test to see what impact the changes have had.

I am not going to write down my entire food diary, but will give you a sampling of what I am currently eating.
My proteins consist mainly of chicken and fish/seafood. Sometimes egg whites in an omelet, fat free cottage cheese, plain fat free yogurt.
My carbs come from veggies, I usually eat a loaded salad every day (romaine lettuce plus enough veggies to overwhelm the heartiest appetite). Berries about 1-2 blocks per day, and usually a veggie-based cooked dish for dinner. I rarely eat any unfavorable carbs, and I have not been adding anything that is of higher density carb (like beans).
My fats are primarily from olive oil and nuts (almonds), sometimes some avocado in the salad.

Here are my thoughts on how to approach it, feel free to add any suggestions on my approach:
1. baseline blood test to establish where I am now, I feel that this would be a valuable tool, as I have already been established on a fish oil dosage for a long time. It might actually rewrite my entire plan, depending on what the results are. If it comes out great, then maybe the whole theory about the eicosanoid balance is out the door.

2. based on the results, this might change, but my next move would potentially be to stop the NSAID and increase the fish oil by 4 caps daily. I am not sure really how to do this without potentially going through some discomfort while not on the NSAID and while waiting for the fish oil to reach a therapeutic level. But, if one counteracts the other, I suppose there is no choice here.

3. after a month or 2, will repeat the blood test to see what impact these changes have had. Depending on results, I could then make further changes, if required.


I am on a limited budget right now, and so the thought of doing the blood test right now is not pleasing to me, nor is it pleasing to be repeating the test and increasing the fish oil dose. All of this is much more costly than a bottle of Ibuprofen. However, there is value in doing it this way, in terms of health. And, I really want to be able to see how each change impacts my overall profile.

Thoughts?

Lets take a look at your theory of expense ? Is it worth 1.32 a day to feel great, be certain of the purity and get the the levels and ratio of EPA and DHA that Dr Sears recommends per day ?

Lets experiment.... What do you pay now for your Fish Oil ? How mauch EPA and DHA per capsule? Does your product have test results which shows the Purity ? How much are you spending on your NSAIDS per month ?

QUOTE (Tech): Lets experiment.... What do you pay now for your Fish Oil ? How mauch EPA and DHA per capsule? Does your product have test results which shows the Purity ? END QUOTE
.
$16.00 for 120 soft gel capsules
400:200 per capsule
Yes

Techie,

Expense is an issue, but I am willing to look beyond it for my health, while keeping things realistic.



Ibuprofen is cheap, depends on where I get it and whether I go with name brand (Motrin) or generic store brand. Usually less than $5 per bottle.
I have also been taking Naproxen (Aleve). more expensive, especially name brand (Aleve), but usually spend about less than $5 per bottle, lasts me 2 weeks (about).

I would like to stick to the topic that I posted about, regarding the effects of NSAIDs on one's eicosanoid profile. I would really like to hear more about how big/small the effect is.

However, I would appreciate anyone's thoughts as to whether or not I am spending wisely vs. unwisely regarding the testing plan that I have laid out. Would you agree that I should do a baseline test now? And, how long after making adjustments should I wait before retesting? If I retest too soon, I imagine that would be a waste of money, as well!

Carnberry.

I would think testing is a good idea for you. You can get the test for free from us (150.00 value) with the purchase of 6 bottles of OmegaRX..

If you subtract the amount of the test from the amount of the fish oil.... the savings are extreme. That will give you an opportunity to use Dr Sears OmegaRX and see the results for your self while saving money.

Looking into if I can get more information on the topic.

A reasonable AA/EPA retest timeframe is 30 days after increasing fish oil diss. It takes only 30 days at any given dose to obtain the full benefit of that dose.

Thank you both for the added info. I was thinking the same thing, 30 days should be enough time, just wanted to be sure on that.

As for the free test, would have to crunch some numbers, it might make it more economical initially to get the testing done, but overall the cost of the Zone fish oil is twice as much as what I am getting. So, in the longterm, it would be much more economical to use what I am using now.

I do have an old omega-3 report that I can reference, my previous test was done while taking OmegaRx, so it will be interesting to see the changes. I don't recall if I was taking a daily dose of NSAID at that time, although I am thinking that I probably was.

A tip, you may not be able to do a valid comparison of AA/EPA if you're looking at 2 different types of AA/EPA tests (depends on both type of blood draw and the difference in the techniques used to perform the actual tests).

Also Cranberry ..... Maybe the forum page of the fish oil product that you use would be helpful.

vegan diet meaning what exactly?

i eat grass-fed chicken. is that an issue if I eat a lot of it?

sarah

[quote]
Posted By Sarah on 10 Jul 2012 02:28 PM
vegan diet meaning what exactly?

i eat grass-fed chicken. is that an issue if I eat a lot of it?

sarah
[/quote]


Vegan means consuming no animal products of any kind, no meat, poultry/fowl, fish, dairy products or eggs.

sarah

The best option if eating meat is grass fed !

So if, like, I eat a lot of grass fed chicken, does that mean I'm still getting a higher degree of omega-6s than I should?

Also what about pistactics? where do we stand on that one as compared to, say, almonds?

Sarah

Sarah, you can look up AA content on nutritiondata.com. It is also useful to compare nuts.

You are doing a good job eating chicken, stick to the breast for the least amount. I would assume it is even better eating grass fed.

Well, in order to look up AA content, you need to know the code name for AA,

C20:4n6

This is so helpful!

I'll look grass-fed chicken and pistactics up. :-)

By the way. It seems like grass-fed chicken tastes better ... anyone else notice this?

Sarah the carb-sensitive :-)

Hi Cranberry - I've been using Nutritiondata for quite a while but don't know how to look up AA with the code you mentioned. Any tips?