I have examined from the USDA Nutritional Data Tables that many vegetables have protein. I have read on the forum not to count protein wrapped up in carbohydrates. What is the definite word on counting protein grams in vegetables, fruits, grains and nuts?

[quote:81ce591d5f="halderman"]I have examined from the USDA Nutritional Data Tables that many vegetables have protein. I have read on the forum not to count protein wrapped up in carbohydrates. What is the definite word on counting protein grams in vegetables, fruits, grains and nuts?[/quote:81ce591d5f] Apparently, only count protein wrapped in Carbs when the protein is Soy. It is so bound to the fiber, that it is unuseable.

[color=darkred:76d19c04e5]Hi, Jaydpiii is correct. Dr. Sears has written to disregard the P in plant foods except for soy. Gluten "meats" (ie: seitan) would also be counted as P. In case you're not familiar with this product, it is made fom the gluten which has been isolated from wheat.[/color:76d19c04e5]

[quote:c77a179477]Apparently, only count protein wrapped in Carbs when the protein is Soy. It is so bound to the fiber, that it is unuseable.[/quote:c77a179477] What about grain, nuts and beans? Surely all their protein is not unuseable? Nutritionists have long touted that the proteins in vegetables, nuts and grain can be combined such that their complimentary proteins are able to provide all of the essential amino acids (like good ole beans and rice). I can see that fiber might impact bio-availibility of protein just as it does for carbohydrates (total carb-fiber=impact carbs). Perhaps there is a forumula for vegetable protein as well, i.e only 75% of the protein is bioavailable? Please excuse my perfectionism if it offends.

I just found part of my answer in the Soy Zone book. For Beans and Legumes you can only count 70% of the total protein. The book also mentions that soy products that have twice more carbs than protein cannot be counted as a protein source. It seems to me, based on this the rule might be: if protein times 2 > total carbs then that food's protein is 100% available if not then the food's protein is 70% available Any comments?

[quote:284f7158a2="halderman"]I just found part of my answer in the Soy Zone book. For Beans and Legumes you can only count 70% of the total protein. The book also mentions that soy products that have twice more carbs than protein cannot be counted as a protein source. It seems to me, based on this the rule might be: if protein times 2 > total carbs then that food's protein is 100% available if not then the food's protein is 70% available Any comments?[/quote:284f7158a2] [color=darkred:284f7158a2]Hi, I don't think you can make that assumption. The amount of P orC in a particular food doesn't necessarily impact the P's availability for use in the body (ie: it's ability to be accessed for digestion). It is the structure of the insoluble fiber in the particular veggie food which dictates the availability of the P in that food. Regarding the info you've referenced from "The Soy Zone", I recall in that book it tells you that if the C in a soy product is more than half the amount of P, then the C should be taken into account as part of the C block count in a meal. If the C in a soy food is less than half the amount of P, then it is of an amount negligible enough not to have to be included in the C block count. The P in a soy food is always counted regardless of the amount ot C in the particular food. [/color:284f7158a2]

Ok. I see that protein absorption is impacted by fiber and that high fiber foods can impact the absorption of that protein. Thus if you are looking at protein sources, vegetables are not that great, except certain soy products that are also relatively low in carbs. Being the perfectionist that I am, I usually don't use the food block method when calculating how to eat towards the zone, I usually look at the gram count. When using the gram count method, what percentage should I use for protein from vegetables (not soy), fruit, grains and nuts? I read on the below website: "About 98% of the protein from animal sources and about 80% of the protein from vegetable sources is absorbed by the body." http://www.ifafitness.com/book1/protein.htm I also found the below table from the below web site: [quote:bdc2fd267c]Table 1: Digestibility of common proteins foods Food source Protein digestibility (%) Egg 97 Milk and cheese 97 Mixed US diet 96 Peanut butter 95 Meat and fish 94 Whole wheat 86 Oatmeal 86 Soybeans 78 Rice 76 Source: National Research Council. Recommended Dietary Allowances, 10th ed. National Academy Press, 1989.[/quote:bdc2fd267c] http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articl...ein-02.htm If I am counting protein grams (instead of blocks) the above seems like good advice, but I am more inclined to stay on the safe side of Dr. Sears recommendation for beans and legumes of 70% mentioned in the Soy Zone book. Any comments?

[quote:96b5f478cc="halderman"]Being the perfectionist that I am... Any comments?[/quote:96b5f478cc] If you are counting grams, then you don't need to go by Sears' block/volume guidelines at all. These are for people who want to simplify things by using approximation. Sears has already lowered the minimum amount of protein as a portion of the total meal required to stay in the zone. So the whole thing is a bit of a moving target. In his first book, he didn't even account for the fiber in the carbohydrate source. Fiber is an important consideration because most people don't get enough of it. According to the NAS, at least 30% of your carbs by weight should be fiber. If you just went by that and ate an adequate amount of protein, this would put you in the zone automatically. But unless you eat a lot of high fiber vegetables like the zone diet prescribes, you will never reach 30% fiber in your carbohydrate intake. I have always wondered, when it comes to vegetable protein sources, if lack of the full spectrum of essential amino acids is more important to consider than digestibility. Soy protein (along with other beans) has a good balance of amino acids, but most other non-animal protein lack the same set of essential amino acids.

[quote:948cb1b423="dran001"] Fiber is an important consideration because most people don't get enough of it. According to the NAS, at least 30% of your carbs by weight should be fiber. If you just went by that and ate an adequate amount of protein, this would put you in the zone automatically. But unless you eat a lot of high fiber vegetables like the zone diet prescribes, you will never reach 30% fiber in your carbohydrate intake.[/quote:948cb1b423] I am of the opinion that the primary benefit with fiber is the lowering of glycemic load of the diet. As you note, if the fiber content of your carbohydrate choices are high, than the insulin stimulating content is low. The question is, would eating a low glycemic load diet without a lot of fiber be detrimental? [quote:948cb1b423]I have always wondered, when it comes to vegetable protein sources, if lack of the full spectrum of essential amino acids is more important to consider than digestibility. Soy protein (along with other beans) has a good balance of amino acids, but most other non-animal protein lack the same set of essential amino acids.[/quote:948cb1b423] Probably a bit of both with the challenge of keeping the GL down if relying sole on vegetable sources of protein.