What if I take fish oil alone without being in the Zone. Will I lower my blood pressure?

Like the old man who is incontinent, the answer is "depends"! If you are a long way out of the zone, and take a minimal amount of pgfo, i.e. 1 cap, probably not. If you take 8 caps, probably yes. There are too many variables you haven't given, to give a definitive answer. Height/Weight, age, sex, eating habits would be a good start.

Hi Fatboyslim. [quote:bf4c1b4b87="Fatboyslim"]Like the old man who is incontinent, the answer is "depends"! If you are a long way out of the zone, and take a minimal amount of pgfo, i.e. 1 cap, probably not. If you take 8 caps, probably yes. There are too many variables you haven't given, to give a definitive answer. Height/Weight, age, sex, eating habits would be a good start.[/quote:bf4c1b4b87] I disagree with you in terms of theory, while agreeing with you in principle. All the scientific evidence indicates that PGFO will lower Blood pressure so The answer is really YES The effect of a low dose on its own would be minimal is really what you are saying.? PGFO thins the blood thus reducing pressure, however most people need insulin control, adequate exercise and PGFO to maintain blood pressure at the optimum level White Light

[color=darkred:fb06e291a3]Hi, I'm curious. Dr. Sears explained to me (by phone, so you'll have to take my word for it) that the mechanism by which FO lowers BP is vasodilation, (dilating the blood vessels). You have written it is the blood thinning property of FO which lowers BP. So, does FO directly cause the vessels to dilate, or indirectly by thinning the blood which then causes the vessels to dilate? If anyone knows the answer, I'd appreciate knowing. I did a search and found the following "Ask Dr.Sears" Q&A in which he mentions vasodilation to someone else, but doesn't mention the thinning aspect of FO being involved (so it doesn't really answer my qn.):[/color:fb06e291a3]-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Today's question "Blood pressure & diuretics" Dear Dr. Sears, After reading "The Zone" a month ago, staying on a Zone favorable diet and walking nearly every day over the same period, my diastolic pressure has not changed. A month ago it was 150/100 before doing anything. Now it is 140/100. My doctor has just prescribed diuretics that you indicate will promote insulin production. Over the past month I lost 17 lbs but still need to lose at least 40 more. Can I expect a reduction in diastolic pressure if I continue with Zone Diet & exercise for a longer period and lose more weight? Should I take the diuretics for 2 weeks as prescribed? By the way thanks so much for your book, it has changed my life despite the above problem! Warren -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Warren: Before using diuretics, I would suggest increasing your level of fish oil consumption. The long-chain Omega-3 fatty acids will have a significant impact for increasing your vasodilation of your peripheral vascular system with a corresponding drop in blood pressure. If that isn?t sufficient, then I would suggest the use of ACE inhibitors because they don?t affect insulin levels as do diuretics.

[quote:28dde5bfd1="Slknorr"]I'm curious. Dr. Sears explained to me (by phone, so you'll have to take my word for it) that the mechanism by which FO lowers BP is vasodilation, (dilating the blood vessels). You have written it is the blood thinning property of FO which lowers BP. So, does FO directly cause the vessels to dilate, or indirectly by thinning the blood which then causes the vessels to dilate? If anyone knows the answer, I'd appreciate knowing.[/quote:28dde5bfd1] Sue, Dr. Sears answer is the correct one. As I understand it, relaxing (and enlarging) the veins lowers BP by making the veins act like limp rubber bands instead of stretched ones. Thinning does not mean that the blood is less viscous under normal circumstances. It means that the blood does not clot easily. It is only "thinner" during an injury that causes you to bleed.

[quote:20e8e00180="gofish"][quote:20e8e00180="Slknorr"]I'm curious. Dr. Sears explained to me (by phone, so you'll have to take my word for it) that the mechanism by which FO lowers BP is vasodilation, (dilating the blood vessels). You have written it is the blood thinning property of FO which lowers BP. So, does FO directly cause the vessels to dilate, or indirectly by thinning the blood which then causes the vessels to dilate? If anyone knows the answer, I'd appreciate knowing.[/quote:20e8e00180] Sue, Dr. Sears answer is the correct one. As I understand it, relaxing (and enlarging) the veins lowers BP by making the veins act like limp rubber bands instead of stretched ones. Thinning does not mean that the blood is less viscous under normal circumstances. It means that the blood does not clot easily. It is only "thinner" during an injury that causes you to bleed.[/quote:20e8e00180] [color=darkred:20e8e00180]Thanks, I agree, but I'm still trying to figure out what WL means.[/color:20e8e00180]

Hi Sue, quote="Slknorr"][quote:8b18cf965f="gofish"][quote:8b18cf965f="Slknorr"]I'm curious. Dr. Sears explained to me (by phone, so you'll have to take my word for it) that the mechanism by which FO lowers BP is vasodilation, (dilating the blood vessels). You have written it is the blood thinning property of FO which lowers BP. So, does FO directly cause the vessels to dilate, or indirectly by thinning the blood which then causes the vessels to dilate? If anyone knows the answer, I'd appreciate knowing.[/quote:8b18cf965f] Sue, Dr. Sears answer is the correct one. As I understand it, relaxing (and enlarging) the veins lowers BP by making the veins act like limp rubber bands instead of stretched ones. Thinning does not mean that the blood is less viscous under normal circumstances. It means that the blood does not clot easily. It is only "thinner" during an injury that causes you to bleed.[/quote:8b18cf965f] [color=darkred:8b18cf965f]Thanks, I agree, but I'm still trying to figure out what WL means.[/color:8b18cf965f][/quote] Now Im unsure what requires clarification. We now all agree that PGFO lowers BP Right ? The answer as to how is a bit more complex because it does it in several ways IMO the easiest way to understand it is By comparing it to plumbing and clogged pipes With a high carb high saturated fat diet the walls of arteries and vains are clogged with GUNK and the blood if full of GUNK all waiting to cause a blockage. The pressure required to pump blood is directly related to Viscousity of the blood and the "pipe" it gets pumpted through. PGFO improves viscosity, Increases pipe SIZE (through clearing gunk) AND improves elasticity of the pipe White Light

[quote:6b1658a5b0="gofish"][quote:6b1658a5b0="Slknorr"]I'm curious. Dr. Sears explained to me (by phone, so you'll have to take my word for it) that the mechanism by which FO lowers BP is vasodilation, (dilating the blood vessels). You have written it is the blood thinning property of FO which lowers BP. So, does FO directly cause the vessels to dilate, or indirectly by thinning the blood which then causes the vessels to dilate? If anyone knows the answer, I'd appreciate knowing.[/quote:6b1658a5b0] Sue, Dr. Sears answer is the correct one. As I understand it, relaxing (and enlarging) the veins lowers BP by making the veins act like limp rubber bands instead of stretched ones. Thinning does not mean that the blood is less viscous under normal circumstances. It means that the blood does not clot easily. It is only "thinner" during an injury that causes you to bleed.[/quote:6b1658a5b0] Sue, I have been researching fats for several weeks, and I just ran across this reference that talks about blood viscosity lowering due to omega-3 which backs up what WhiteLight said: From: http://www.drmcdougall.com/ "There is evidence that EFA in the diet, especially of the w-3 variety, protects against atherosclerosis and its related thrombotic complications, such as a heart attack (Eicosanoids 1989;2(2):69-99). Mechanisms probably involve the eicosanoids and a decrease in the tendency of platelets to adhere together, a decrease in blood viscosity, and a decrease in fibrinogen with a resulting decrease in tendency for a blood clot (thrombus) in the heart artery to form (Am J Clin Nutr 54:438, 1991). After feeding alpha linolenic acid the arteries of obese subjects have become more compliant (elastic), which indicates a decreased risk of a heart attack (Aterioscler Thromb Vasc Biol 17:1163, 1997)."

[color=darkred:4f4667134a]Hi, Your quote applies atherosclerosis, not BP.[/color:4f4667134a]

[quote:8b7dbaa25b="Slknorr"][color=darkred:8b7dbaa25b]Hi, Your quote applies atherosclerosis, not BP.[/color:8b7dbaa25b][/quote:8b7dbaa25b] I was pointing out the blood viscosity decrease sited relative to EFA intake. If the effect is real, it will also lower BP in the manner described by WhiteLight. I doubt the effect will be very significant compared to the other factors, but it would have some effect. Here is another abstract that mentions that it is the lack of EPA that increases these factors: Essential fatty acids in health and chronic disease1,2 Artemis P Simopoulos 1 From The Center for Genetics, Nutrition and Health, Washington, DC. Human beings evolved consuming a diet that contained about equal amounts of n-3 and n-6 essential fatty acids. Over the past 100–150 y there has been an enormous increase in the consumption of n-6 fatty acids due to the increased intake of vegetable oils from corn, sunflower seeds, safflower seeds, cottonseed, and soybeans. Today, in Western diets, the ratio of n-6 to n-3 fatty acids ranges from 20–30:1 instead of the traditional range of 1–2:1. Studies indicate that a high intake of n-6 fatty acids shifts the physiologic state to one that is prothrombotic and proaggregatory, characterized by increases in [b:8b7dbaa25b]blood viscosity, vasospasm, and vasoconstriction[/b:8b7dbaa25b] and decreases in bleeding time. n-3 Fatty acids, however, have antiinflammatory, antithrombotic, antiarrhythmic, hypolipidemic, and vasodilatory properties. These beneficial effects of n-3 fatty acids have been shown in the secondary prevention of coronary heart disease, hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and, in some patients with renal disease, rheumatoid arthritis, ulcerative colitis, Crohn disease, and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Most of the studies were carried out with fish oils [eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA)]. However, -linolenic acid , found in green leafy vegetables, flaxseed, rapeseed, and walnuts, desaturates and elongates in the human body to EPA and DHA and by itself may have beneficial effects in health and in the control of chronic diseases.

[quote:e741856746="WL"]With a high carb high saturated fat diet the walls of arteries and vains are clogged with GUNK and the blood if full of GUNK all waiting to cause a blockage. [/quote:e741856746] I routinely give blood, and I have NEVER had clumps in my blood, nor seen anyone else with any. It's not like washing your hair in the sink. From what I've been able to ascertain from reading, artherosclerotic plaques(GUNK) contain approx. 2/3 PUFA, and the cholesterol that is there is oxidized. Draw your own conclusions.

[quote:97bb5817d5="Fatboyslim"] I routinely give blood, and I have NEVER had clumps in my blood, nor seen anyone else with any. It's not like washing your hair in the sink. From what I've been able to ascertain from reading, artherosclerotic plaques(GUNK) contain approx. 2/3 PUFA, and the cholesterol that is there is oxidized. Draw your own conclusions.[/quote:97bb5817d5] The view that it is a plumbing problem (clogged pipes) is no longer accepted. It's a very dynamic process with inflammation playing a significant role.

HI Scott, [quote="Scott"][quote:8655d6f374="Fatboyslim"][quote:8655d6f374="WL"] I routinely give blood, and I have NEVER had clumps in my blood, nor seen anyone else with any. It's not like washing your hair in the sink. From what I've been able to ascertain from reading, artherosclerotic plaques(GUNK) contain approx. 2/3 PUFA, and the cholesterol that is there is oxidized. Draw your own conclusions.[/quote:8655d6f374] The view that it is a plumbing problem (clogged pipes) is no longer accepted. It's a very dynamic process with inflammation playing a significant role.[/quote:8655d6f374] The quote you make is Bob's Not mine ! Clogged pipes represents both mainstream and zone philosophy.If you oppose this We look forward to your explanation While inflamation represents a significant role thats WITHIN the clogged pipes theory ! So where exactly have both Dr. Sears and AHA gone so wrong ? White Light

[quote:c00833d8fb="White Light"] The quote you make is Bob's Not mine ![/quote:c00833d8fb] Sloppy editing on my part--I fixed the post. [quote:c00833d8fb] Clogged pipes represents both mainstream and zone philosophy.If you oppose this We look forward to your explanation While inflamation represents a significant role thats WITHIN the clogged pipes theory ! So where exactly have both Dr. Sears and AHA gone so wrong ?[/quote:c00833d8fb] IMO, Barry Sears view (inflammation) and that of the AHA (lipid hypothesis) are quite different. The latter believes that excess dietary fat accumulates in the arteries, essentially clogging the pipes. The Sears model is that hormonal changes take place that cause vasoconstriction, inflammation and platelet aggregation-- more later

[quote:837e77be14="Scott"]IMO, Barry Sears view (inflammation) and that of the AHA (lipid hypothesis) are quite different. The latter believes that excess dietary fat accumulates in the arteries, essentially clogging the pipes. The Sears model is that hormonal changes take place that cause vasoconstriction, inflammation and platelet aggregation-- more later[/quote:837e77be14] IMO it isn't wrong to say that excess dietary fat can lead to "plumbing" problems. It's important to recognize good fats vs. bad fats. Obviously saturated and trans fats can lead to clogged arteries or "plumbing" problems.

[quote:25983182da="tech@drsears.com"][quote:25983182da="Scott"]IMO, Barry Sears view (inflammation) and that of the AHA (lipid hypothesis) are quite different. The latter believes that excess dietary fat accumulates in the arteries, essentially clogging the pipes. The Sears model is that hormonal changes take place that cause vasoconstriction, inflammation and platelet aggregation-- more later[/quote:25983182da] IMO it isn't wrong to say that excess dietary fat can lead to "plumbing" problems. It's important to recognize good fats vs. bad fats. Obviously saturated and trans fats can lead to clogged arteries or "plumbing" problems.[/quote:25983182da] Thanks for the input tech. There are of course good and bad fats. But I don't believe even the "bad" fats contribute to disease in this manner (by building up and clogging arteries). The following link may be useful. http://www.sciamdigital.com/browse....sc=I100322

I moved this from the problems registering forum to here (before Tech deleted it). The poster was not registered (Doc), but I thought it added to the conversation. [quote:612e4d0949]Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:12 am    Post subject: To Scott re artery walls .>>>>>.......arteries bear little resembalance to inanimate pipes. They contain living cells that communicate constantly with one another and their environment. These cells participate in the development and growth of atherosclerotic deposits.....<<<<<<<< Scott, this is true as far as it goes but does not mention many other important characteristics , such as the fact that the deposit (or plaque) itself is a living mass of cells. This is another important reason why atherosclerosis cannot simply be described as a "straight plumbing problem". Also, to make a long story short, I should mention that the food we eat can have almost an immediate effect on artery health.[/quote:612e4d0949]

[quote:9934910cc1="gofish"][quote:9934910cc1="doc"] .>>>>>.......arteries bear little resembalance to inanimate pipes. They contain living cells that communicate constantly with one another and their environment. These cells participate in the development and growth of atherosclerotic deposits.....<<<<<<<< Scott, this is true as far as it goes but does not mention many other important characteristics , such as the fact that the deposit (or plaque) itself is a living mass of cells. This is another important reason why atherosclerosis cannot simply be described as a "straight plumbing problem". Also, to make a long story short, I should mention that the food we eat can have almost an immediate effect on artery health.[/quote:9934910cc1][/quote:9934910cc1] Thanks for the post Doc--did you happen to review the entire article?

My (uneducated) understanding is that inflammation results in the rupturing of atheroclerotic plaques; I've never heard that inflammation causes the initial accumulation of plaques. Is that true? I thought the jury was pretty much out on that one.

[quote

Hi All, [quote:dd97eff72e="Scott"][quote:dd97eff72e="tech@drsears.com"][quote:dd97eff72e="Scott"]IMO, Barry Sears view (inflammation) and that of the AHA (lipid hypothesis) are quite different. The latter believes that excess dietary fat accumulates in the arteries, essentially clogging the pipes. The Sears model is that hormonal changes take place that cause vasoconstriction, inflammation and platelet aggregation-- more later[/quote:dd97eff72e] IMO it isn't wrong to say that excess dietary fat can lead to "plumbing" problems. It's important to recognize good fats vs. bad fats. Obviously saturated and trans fats can lead to clogged arteries or "plumbing" problems.[/quote:dd97eff72e] Thanks for the input tech. There are of course good and bad fats. But I don't believe even the "bad" fats contribute to disease in this manner (by building up and clogging arteries). The following link may be useful. http://www.sciamdigital.com/browse....ff72e] I am happy to report Tech correctly represents both Dr Sears, Zone and Mainstrem on this issue Scott, How can you think EXCESS fat accumulation does not cause this well known problem ? Certainly excess carbs converted to fat are as bad or worse than sat fat consumption, but clogged pipes is still the mumber 1 killer in the USA ! White Light

[quote:96dd6ef510="White Light"]I am happy to report Tech correctly represents both Dr Sears, Zone and Mainstream on this issue Scott, How can you think EXCESS fat accumulation does not cause this well known problem ? Certainly excess carbs converted to fat are as bad or worse than sat fat consumption, but clogged pipes is still the number 1 killer in the USA![/quote:96dd6ef510] These replies are a bit confusing to me. Please allow me try to restate the issue in other technically more accurate terms: Tech says that it is hormonal disturbances that cause heart disease according to Berry Sears. The medical research establishment says that "artery pipes" do not clog from to much fat, but do get "growths" on the inside walls due to injuries, and the inappropriate inflammatory responses to these. These growths can sometimes rupture and break off, causing a blockage that leads to heart attack or stroke. Both are in agreement. Dr. Sears also says that certain types of fats (in the poly-unsaturated category --both normal, or hydrogenated into trans fats) cause hormonal changes in the body (both good and bad). In addition, excess stored body fat around the internal organs (tummy region), can also cause hormonal disturbances in the body that contribute to excess inflammation. The medical research also backs this up. Everyone also agrees that mono-unsaturated fats are much better than most poly-unsaturated fats for heart health. Eating saturated fat is the area that has a wide array of opinions. So far, my research indicates that there is a strong case in the medical research for the dietary need for saturated fats. However, it is not a case of all or nothing. The greatest health needs the proper blend of saturated fats of different kinds and mono-unsaturated fats, along with a small amount of the proper kind of poly-unsaturated fat. Trans fats have no place in a healthy diet. I will be posting more on this in the near future. It has taken months of daily research to get my head around this issue. And it is not as easy as I first thought to summarize it into practical application. The state of medical research is still very infantile.

[quote:dabfb21cee="White Light"] Scott, How can you think EXCESS fat accumulation does not cause this well known problem ? Certainly excess carbs converted to fat are as bad or worse than sat fat consumption, but clogged pipes is still the mumber 1 killer in the USA ! [/quote:dabfb21cee] Excess of anything can cause problems--I just don't believe it occurs in the manner that I am intrepreting on this thread (fat building up within the arteries). Excess omega-6 results in increases in pro-inflammatory/vascoconstricting/platelet aggregating eicosanoids. Excess of certain saturated fats can increase cellular membrane rigidity, increasing insulin levels, and resulting in the same increases in series-2 eicosanoids described above (excess inflammation, constriction, platelet aggregation) Excess transfats gum up the desaturase pathways that metabolize essential fatty acids into eicosanoids. Excess fat(calories) in general [i:dabfb21cee]may[/i:dabfb21cee] increase insulin levels in order to store such excess, which ultimately increases the rate of AA synthesis and the resulting series-2 eicosanoids. I don't believe that fat, saturated or trans, simply sits in the blood stream, slowly piling up.

[quote:8cdd4c8bbc="BrianG"]My (uneducated) understanding is that inflammation results in the rupturing of atheroclerotic plaques; I've never heard that inflammation causes the initial accumulation of plaques. Is that true? I thought the jury was pretty much out on that one.[/quote:8cdd4c8bbc] According to what I have seen, inflammation contributes to the accmulation of plaques as well as the rupturing.

[quote:6d6bfe2420="WL"]Scott, How can you think EXCESS fat accumulation does not cause this well known problem ? Certainly excess carbs converted to fat are as bad or worse than sat fat consumption, but clogged pipes is still the mumber 1 killer in the USA ! [/quote:6d6bfe2420] I'm not Scott, but this is still very interesting, so if I may... EXCESS fat accumulation is not caused by eating fat, so why are you pointing the finger at fat? It is caused by excess carbohydrate consumption. This per Dr. Sears, via insulin. "Clogged pipes". While the phrase may be inaccurate, the meaning is clear enough. It's been stated several times that it is clear that clogged pipes are caused by SFA, but I just don't buy it. Why blame SFA when the clogs are made of 2/3 pufa's, and the cholesterol(the repair substance) that is there is oxidized, which means SFA, which doesn't oxidize, is cleared of wrongdoing.