Hi All,

I'd like to hear from a bunch of people on this. Are any of you very hungry when you wake up? I mean the alarm goes off and the first thing you notice is how hungry you are?

I ask because all of my life I have been this way and the zone seems to have increased that fact. Doesn't matter how many blocks I consume, it happened when I started at 11 and continued as I experimented with more blocks. It happens if I eat the snack or it I don't.(tried not eating it to see if that would help)

My DH can't understand it as food to him is the morning makes him nauseous. Same with my DD. She does eat breakfast, but is not hungry.

I'm open to any suggestions, as I hate that feeling. I have to rush to the kitchen to get something quick or I'll be shaky.

Thanks for your help.

Hi!

The solution is to achieve better insulin control by following closer adherence to the Zone diet.

Sue, have you tried playing with a variety of bedtime snacks? Some snacks just work much better for me than others. If I have an unbalanced snack before bed, I usually wake up more hungry. And, it may also help to take your fish oil at that time. The fat may help to slow the glycemic response of your bedtime snack.

Sue - I precisely measure my blocks, hence the reason I did the study on actual protein per bock. I know I've posted a lot lately about the plate method, but my question has always been about accuracy. Either way, and I have tried the plate method, I still feel ravenous. I use the same block combo that will hold me during the day, and I don't need to adjust my carbs then, so not sure that I'd need to at night.

CC - ok, here is what I have tried. Went the liquid method with milk, no go. I've tried string cheese, berries and almonds, nope. Tried something denser, like oatmeal, peanut butter and protein powder. Nope. I'm open to other suggestions. oh and i've tried egg white, veggies and almonds. Not that either.

sue, since you are in the Zone all day and just wake up a bit hungry, seems to me as if your body is just "fasting" a bit too long.

A zone meal is going to keep you in the zone for 4-6 hours, and a snack is going to work for about 2 hours or so. But, we sleep for ## of hours, likely sleeping longer than the effectiveness of these meals/snacks. Now, I think that our metabolism drops during the night, but maybe yours is still in overdrive.

When is your evening meal and snack timing? How active are you in the evening?

Sue,
I agree with cc- about your matabolic rate staying in overdrive all night. that is possible.
My father and mother were both diabetic, and at times had to wake up at night to drink orange juice if there blood sugar had dropped. so they had a sm cooler in there room with oj,& pb crackers.

Not that you are diabetic but your insulin being that off when you wake, you might want to try keeping a zone bar on your night stand and having that when you wake. especially if you go to thegym or excersize during the day. Dr. Sears does recomend having a snack before going to the gym, as well as eating with in an hour of waking.

Maybe that will help

Julie

sue, here are a couple more things to think about. One, the Zone is not about achieving precision in measuring, but rather about finding the combinations and amounts of Zone friendly foods that will keep your insulin levels low while at the same time maintaining or increasing your LBM. That is the way to achieve satiety 24/7. Two, eating too much food overall, even if it's eaten in the form of your best personal Zone balance, is a sure way to prevent the lowering of insulin levels.

You could always get a fasting insulin blood test to see how you're doing with insulin control. In the 15 years I've been eating the Zone diet, I've never had a doctor refuse my request to order one once I've explained that I want it to use as a measure of my progress with my dietary approach to wellness.

If you'd like to post your LBM, body fat %, a day or two, or three, of your actual meals and snacks, including timing, your exercise, and how you felt throughout those days, maybe we could all offer some more appropriate suggestions.

Sue, I am confused by your post.

I think little sue has said on numerous occasions that she is NOT having any difficulty with insulin levels throughout the day. And, she is NOT gaining weight (I think I remember her mentioning that in a prior post). So, I don't understand why you feel she is eating too much food?

<div class='NTForums_Quote'>Posted By Sue on 05/04/2009 4:14 PM
I never thought of that, and it does make sense. I myself might ask my dr. to order me one it can be a great measuring tool.

sue, here are a couple more things to think about. One, the Zone is not about achieving precision in measuring, but rather about finding the combinations and amounts of Zone friendly foods that will keep your insulin levels low while at the same time maintaining or increasing your LBM. That is the way to achieve satiety 24/7. Two, eating too much food overall, even if it's eaten in the form of your best personal Zone balance, is a sure way to prevent the lowering of insulin levels.

You could always get a fasting insulin blood test to see how you're doing with insulin control. In the 15 years I've been eating the Zone diet, I've never had a doctor refuse my request to order one once I've explained that I want it to use as a measure of my progress with my dietary approach to wellness.

If you'd like to post your LBM, body fat %, a day or two, or three, of your actual meals and snacks, including timing, your exercise, and how you felt throughout those days, maybe we could all offer some more appropriate suggestions.
</div>

From personal experience, asking for a fasting insulin test may be good, but it may also not tell a lot. I suppose it COULD tell something. However, even if you ask a doc for the order, doesn't mean that one won't have to pay for it. As a test that is not routinely ordered, it may not be covered.

I had hunger problems previously, and still had really good fasting insulin levels. So, for me, it was not really useful, other than to pat me on the back. Surely, my hunger had indicated that I was not in the Zone, but it certainly was not because of my dietary choices!

Also, FYI, fasting insulin levels will typically be elevated in those who suffer from "hyperinsulinemia", metabolic syndrome, and the like. But, it may also be very low in people with diabetes, due to the lack of ability to produce insulin.

Great Julie!

It's one of Dr. Sears 3 markers for determining wellness.

Here's the info for the 3 markers of wellness, taken from his newest book, TOXIC FAT:

"Silent Inflammation Status:

AA/EPA ratio ...>15, dangerous; 10, poor; 3, good; 1.5 ideal


Insulin Resistance Status:

Fasting insulin...>15 uU/ml, dangerous; 10 uU/ml, poor; 5 uU/ml, good; >5 uU/ml, ideal

TG/HDL ratio...>4, dangerous; 3, poor; 2, good; <1 ideal

This is not a multiple-choice test. Either you pass all the tests, or you can't be considered well."

He goes on to explain how looks can be deceiving by describing how Olympic athletes he's worked with have had high levels of silent inflammation from "training too hard" and have turned it around with the Zone, resulting in improved performance. The Olympic athletes Dr. Sears has worked with have won 24 gold medals in the past 4 Olympics.

Julie, Sue and CC - I will keep a diary for the next three days and post, I haven't written down my weekend meals and I'm sure I'll forget something.

Just off the top of my head though, in general my meal timing is as follows:

Get up at 5:30 - 5:45. Breakfast is at 6:30 - 7. Lunch is at 12 noon, snack at 4pm, dinner 5:30-6, Evening snack 9:30 -10 generally closer to 10. Bed is 10:30-11. My meals keep me satisfied and I am focused. I do not feel bloated or stuffed when I leave the table, just satisfied.

My evenings vary, mon and tues I have yoga for an hour. From 8-9, I eat my snack at 9:30 on those days. I am usually still full from dinner as it is only 1 1/2 hours before yoga. The Wed evening is generally relaxing as Rachel has a flute lesson. Thur and Fri, will sometimes include a walk if I didn't get it in earlier.

Tue, Thur, Sat are gym days, with weights and cardio. Mon, Wed, Fri, Sun are run and/or walk depending on my day. Gym days also include a walk or yoga or both.

My breakfast are pretty routine, so I can post those. I generally rotate the following:

4 egg whites with a few veggies for flavor (onion, red pepper, jalapeno) equal to 1/2 C. 1 slice 100% whole wheat toast, 1 cup LF Milk, 1C of fruit. EVOO for my fat. 3.5 blocks.

or 2/3 c. oatmeal, 1 C fruit, 3 P of protein powder, 1 tsp peanut butter and 1 c. milk. 4 blocks

or Yogurt (1 C, 1P) Bran buds 1 C, Fruit 1 C, 3 P of protein powder, Almonds for fat. 3 Blocks.

The fruit is generally berries, grapefruit or pear. They each contain a denser or unfav carb, but I have found that if I don't have a denser carb it doesn't work. Tried everything else.

I will post my meals tomorrow.

I am trying a two block snack tonight, just to see if there is a difference.

Girls, I had started this post this afternoon, DD needed the computer and I didn't want to lose what I had started, so I know it doesn't address the posts that came in since.

Sue - when we get finished building the accessible bathroom for my DH, and get him settled, I will see about getting to the Dr. for a blood test. However, as CC mentioned above, I did state that I am not having any problems during the day. You can see from my previous post that my meal timing is pretty close to suggested. Since starting the zone my LBM as increased from 95% to 102%. I am not gaining weight.

I will report tomorrow on how my 2 block snack this evening worked out. I had a block to use.

I also had sent in a question to Zone diet via the chat button. I asked a question that wasn't really answered per say, again about the protein issue. Here is the reply:

The minimum number of blocks a female should be consuming in a given day is 11. Increasing to 13 blocks per day is only an additional 200 calories per day, which, if are comprised of balanced carbs, protein, and fat will not hamper your ability to stay in the Zone and lose excess body fat. If you at least somewhat physically active, you should be fine consuming 13 blocks per day.



Hope this helps,



Theoni Gray | Sr. Supervisor Customer Service

Considering I'm am more than somewhat active, I don't think that on days I hit 15 blocks that it will be a problem either.

My question was about the plate method and not being totally sure that it was exactly the number of blocks I needed.

sue, definitely let me know if that 2 block snack works out for you. I was thinking that you could either just add the extra block, or you could "steal" a block from dinner. I was also thinking that maybe you could just try a 1 block snack but upping the fat content in the snack. Might help it last longer, too.

I was more concerned about your body being revved up in the evening, and that your metabolism wasn't slowing down to sleep mode after you go to bed.

If you are doing the gym later in the evening, then I would suggest trying to do that earlier in the day. The way you posted, I wasn't sure if you were doing gym in the evening or not, but I am assuming you are not, since you mentioned yoga, flute lesson, and walking.

The yoga shouldn't cause a problem, probably helpful to have it in the evening.

I know you have tweaked at your meals, and I am not really convinced that is the problem, if you are fine during the day, no hunger between meals, you are losing fat and gaining LBM.

So, I think I am still going to go with either the need for that extra block, or that your metabolism is still racing. From what I know about you and the responsibilities that you carry, I am thinking that you probably are working your tail off much more than you posted here.

BTW, interesting how Theoni Gray seems to support the additional blocks and that it really should not be an issue in the Zone.

Hi sue!

My comments in this thread are in reply to your question in the first post here, about being very hungry when you wake, so hungry that you have to rush to the kitchen to get something quick or you'll be shaky. Theoni's reply isn't about that, nor, for that matter, does it address a person of your LBM who is consuming 15 blocks in a day, which incidentally is the maxiumum block intake for an Olympic athlete of your stature. Whether or not a person feels hungry during the day, eating more food than they require for the Zone can keep insulin levels elevated. This scenario could possibly be a factor in the symptoms you're experiencing when you wake each day. Your consistent use of bread and Bran Buds at breakfast could be another factor.

Sue, how do you figure that little sue is eating too many blocks?

I don't really think you have answered that question yet, even though sue and I tried to address it in a number of other threads!

I can't help but feel a bit frustrated when you have stated that sue is eating too many blocks, yet she is not displaying any signs of eating too many blocks. She is in the Zone all day, she is gaining LBM, and she is NOT gaining bodyfat. You had stated that excess protein would be stored as fat (in another thread), and certainly if she were eating too many blocks, wouldn't she have more trouble staying in the Zone all day?

<div class='NTForums_Quote'>Posted By Sue on 05/04/2009 9:24 PM

Hi sue!

My comments in this thread are in reply to your question in the first post here, about being very hungry when you wake, so hungry that you have to rush to the kitchen to get something quick or you'll be shaky. Theoni's reply does not address that, nor, for that matter, does it address a person of your LBM who is consuming 15 blocks in a day, which incidentally is the maxiumum block intake for an Olympic athlete of your stature. Whether or not a person feels hungry during the day, eating more food than they require for the Zone can keep insulin levels elevated. This scenario could possibly be a factor in the symptoms you're experiencing when you wake each day. Your use of bread and Bran Buds could be another factor. </div>

Sue - Theoni's reply basically says that being off by 2 blocks will not be an issue and it says that I only need to do basic exercise. I am definitely doing more than basic exercise. However we are not going to go there again.

As for my morning hunger issue. The bran buds and the bread are eaten at breakfast not later in the day, so if they were going to throw off my insulin level would not that occur between breakfast and lunch? They are also only 1/4 of my Carb for that meal and that fits with the recommendation in the books as far as I know. If I do not include those with those breakfast combos, I cannot go the recommended 4 hours because I do not have a dense enough carb in there to carry me. Adding more veggies did not work. I have found several meals through out the various books recommending eggs with a tortilla, a tortilla is made of flour and water, I know, I make them on occasion. At least my bread, which I make myself and know the exact ingredients includes EVOO.

Anyway, I am currently corresponding with Lynn Sears, so maybe she can clear up my block recommendations. I sent her my stats and the exercise I do, I will see if she feels I am eating too many blocks.

I still do not feel that is my problem when I wake up, since I am in the zone the rest of the day w/o any issues.

I will post tomorrow about whether the 2 block snack tonight made a difference or not. I did have room to add that extra block. It did not take me to 16.

Hi!

Be careful not to confuse insulin levels with blood sugar levels. A person's insulin level is not solely dependent upon what they ate in the past several hours. How a person eats in the long run determines how successful they'll be at keeping their insulin in the low ranges of the Zone.

Sue, are you making this up as you go along? LOL!

I clearly don't understand how you can pick apart one breakfast meal, totally ignore the fact that little sue feels fine all day, and then claim that this breakfast is causing her to be hungry the next morning!

No wonder most people find the Zone confusing. It is nearly impossible to figure out what meals work and what doesn't work, if we are to worry about the effects of today's breakfast not hitting us until the following day!

Zone literature clearly indicates that we can gauge success in the Zone by looking back 4 hours to our last meal. If we are still feeling satiety at the 4 hour mark after a meal, then we can assume that the meal was hormonally balanced.

Now, tell us what is wrong with that statement, because I do believe Barry wrote it in multiple books!

Ok, here is my report. The two block snack seemed to do the trick. What did I eat? 1 pear, 2 LF string cheese and almonds. I felt good this morning.

My breakfast today - I used the Huevos Rancheros Recipe from ETZ page 252.

1 whole egg
2 egg whites with chopped onion, green pepper, tomato, chili powder, and cilantro,
2 oz of low-fat cheese,
1 slice whole-grain bread
1 1/3 teaspoons almond butter
1 cup honeydew melon cut into cubes as side dish.

I made one adjustment, I used grapefruit as I didn't have honeydew and it is not yet available around here.

Sue - I hope you will notice that this recipe uses the same 1 slice of whole grain bread that I've been using. I knew i wasn't crazy when I created my egg breakfast as it was a take off of one in ETZ. On that same page is an oatmeal recipe that is just like mine only I used protein powder instead of canadian bacon. In fact all but one of the breakfast recipes in ETZ list a dense carb. In fact the one recipe is to have a plain bagel, 3 oz of lox or smoked salmon and 3 tbsp of cream cheese. Another uses a whole english muffin. Please see page 252-253 of ETZ and tell me where my breakfasts are worse than those. These were included by Barry Sears, shouldn't he recognize a balanced breakfast? I don't even have as much dense carb as the last two that I noted.

Look, I don't want to start disagreements on this or any thread, however when I am following what is written in one of the books, I don't understand how what I am eating is wrong. I'm gaining LBM, I'm not gaining weight. Isn't that a sign that I'm doing something right? The fact that I may need to just move my blocks around a bit to get better control at night should not be an issue. So I steal a block from one of my meals to deal with my bedtime, I don't get the problem with that.

I will await Lynn Sears recommendations on my blocks and I will post it when it comes. I will be back to post my lunch. I'm off to the gym, generally I hit the gym in the morning or just after lunch. Never at night. '

I am taking a snack with me for after the gym as i will be headed to the grocery from there.

Hi Zoners!


It's over simplifying to place all measure of success in the Zone on your response to your last meal. There's more to it than that. Barry Sears has set measurable parameters to determine wellness, as I mentioned eariler in this thread. To read about these markers of wellness, which are AA/EPA, fasting insulin, and TG/HDL ratio, refer to page 83 in TOXIC FAT. Both AA/EPA and fasting insulin levels have an impact on your ability to maintain satiety. sue achieves satiety part of the day but not all of the day, according to her first post in this thread. sue's situation of being unable to achieve satiety during the day without adding blocks up to the level an elite athlete would demonstrate that her AA/EPA and fasting insulin are probably not yet at ideals levels. Elevated fasting insulin leads to hormonal scenarios that result in diminished satiety. Elevated AA/EPA also hormonally negatively impacts a person's ability to maintain satiety 24/7. For anyone who desires a more in depth discussion of the scientific detail and the mechanisms at work in relation to satiety, Dr. Sears discusses it in detail in TOXIC FAT (also refer to pages 243 through 268 in that book).

<div class='NTForums_Quote'>Posted By Sue on 05/04/2009 7:24 PM

Great Julie!

It's one of Dr. Sears 3 markers for determining wellness.

Here's the info for the 3 markers of wellness, taken from his newest book, TOXIC FAT:

"Silent Inflammation Status:

AA/EPA ratio ...>15, dangerous; 10, poor; 3, good; 1.5 ideal


Insulin Resistance Status:

Fasting insulin...>15 uU/ml, dangerous; 10 uU/ml, poor; 5 uU/ml, good; >5 uU/ml, ideal

TG/HDL ratio...>4, dangerous; 3, poor; 2, good; <1 ideal

This is not a multiple-choice test. Either you pass all the tests, or you can't be considered well."

He goes on to explain how looks can be deceiving by describing how Olympic athletes he's worked with have had high levels of silent inflammation from "training too hard" and have turned it around with the Zone, resulting in improved performance. The Olympic athletes Dr. Sears has worked with have won 24 gold medals in the past 4 Olympics.

</div>

*** Sue,
That is great .. I own all the other books i might as well get that one too. I t sounds like I can learn more on my well being from it. Thank you

Sue,
I am glad to here the 2 block snack worked for you. that is a positive change. I also found that when Sue critics our menus as she has done to a few of mine <img src='desktopmodules/ntforums/images/emoticons/smile.gif' height='20' width='20' border='0' title='Smile' align='absmiddle'> its not to say you are wrong. How ever maybe just altering a few of the ingridents to work with your body chemistry. Like you had said prior about the dense carbs.
How was breakfast? I havnt tried it yet? <img src='desktopmodules/ntforums/images/emoticons/smile.gif' height='20' width='20' border='0' title='Smile' align='absmiddle'>
We all have diffrent veiws and opions, which is why this forum is fantastic, we can take the info with a grain of salt try new things and see what will work for us and our indiviual life style. I Thank all of you for all your comments.

Big Sue (not to get the 2 of you confused),

Who gets to decide which parts of the Zone books to BELIEVE, and which ones to disregard?

Zone science is what it is. A meal that is not hormonally correct MAY follow you around to the next morning, BUT, it is also likely to affect much more of your day, as well. If I recall, little sue stated that she was LOSING FAT, GAINING LBM, and had GOOD ENERGY with NO HUNGER ALL DAY. I think you must have misunderstood what she said, because you seem to think she was only in the Zone PART of the day. But, her breakfast seems to be giving her good results all day. Don't know what she ate the rest of the day, but apparently nothing else seems to be causing trouble, because, again, she is having good results.

I won't go into the fact that those test results may or may not be important here, but lets be realistic. We can't take blood tests on ourselves every day to see if we ate in the Zone. We have to be able to gauge how we are doing by how we feel and what our bodies are doing.

It is entirely possible that sue's AA/EPA levels may be off, as well as yours and mine. But, isn't that why we are here? Don't you think that part of the reason why we are here is to address our lifestyles and make changes for the bettter? Well, believe it or not, that is what we are doing!

When one is hungry, either they are eating an incorrect ratio of protein/carb, or they are just basically not eating enough. If it is true that the extra snack is going to elevate insulin levels, then I would expect MORE hunger in the morning, as opposed to LESS. But, if it is true that sue just needed an extra block, then I would expect that the hunger would get better.

I really don't think we have to obsess any further on it, it doesn't have to be rocket science.

Little sue,

You probably read my previous post. Just wanted to jump in with you and say that I am really glad that the hunger wasn't as bad today. Give it a few more days, and keep us posted as to how the bedtime snack is working!

One thing that I know that you and I talked about in email is that we are all individuals, and the Zone was meant to be individualized. We are all not the same, and for some of us, we need a tad more dense carb than others. Keeping it to no more than a block is a good solution, and if it works for you, then I don't see a problem with it.

Now, if we were having a discussion about lack of fat loss, or lack of progress in the Zone, I think that maybe the suggestions from Sue would be more appropriate. But, since that is not the case, I don't think we need to go there.