I was poking around the Elite athlete section of this site and flipping through the pics of Zone-sponsored athletes...

Something like 6 triathletes, 1 ultra-marathoner and one cyclist (who is an endurance cyclist not a sprint cyclist).

I even clicked on the link about becoming a Zone-sponsored athlete. Here is what the form looked like:

<div class='NTForums_Quote'>To apply for sponsorship with Zone Labs. Send us a “race resume” for our review.

If you would like to send us your “race resume” then please be sure to answer the following:

- Name, Team Name (if applicable)
- Contact information
- Race bio with 2008 results. Planned 2009 race schedule.
- Your three biggest “claims to fame”
- A short paragraph or bullet points on why you’d like to be sponsored by Zone.
- How you heard about Zone.

Please email this application to sponsorship@zoneliving.com with the subject line “sponsorship request”. Please give us a couple of weeks, then feel free to send another follow-up note if for some reason you don’t hear from us.</div>

Also, apparently if you are a USAT (USA Triathlon) certified coach, you can get discounts on Zone supplements.

It seems to me that the Zone's affiliation with athletes and focus has little to do with elite anaerobic athletes competing in strength/speed events. Where are the Olympic lifters, strongman competitors, powerlifters, sprinters, throwers, or even bodybuilders, etc.? If mention were not made of the use of the Zone diet with some football players in a Marv Marinovich camp in one of Dr. Sears' books, you would hardly know that the Zone thinks anaerobic athletes even exist.

I wonder why this bias seemingly exists with the Zone.

And really, who would be a better ambassador for the Zone? An emaciated marathoner, or a muscular sprinter?

I have kind of wondered that myself for a while. Where are the swimmers, downhill ski racers, etc.

I believe that Dr. Sears exercise requirements fall on the light side for optimum health.

I know that Dr. Sears worked with some Stanford swimmers.

Obviously he also worked with Marv Marinovich's football players at one time.

I know that Crossfit (which I have mixed feelings about) recommends the Zone diet (although Crossfit participation isn't exactly Elite athletics).

I also agree with you regarding the exercise requirements being on the light side for optimal health. There is a strong bias in favor of cardio/endurance activities, when the reality is that anaerobic training improves BOTH anaerobic capacity AND aerobic capacity.

Hi Matt, if it isn't too personal ------ what are your mixed feelings regarding Crossfit? i know just a little bit about it. you seem to be a very fit person along with being knowledgeable about fitness. i'm just curious about it.

forgot this. what types of things are considered anaerobic exercise that is beneficial and an overweight middle aged woman could do?

Deborah,

You should look for the thread that Matt started on HIIT. There is a lot of information about HIIT, and it is something that you could do (and even myself) with some modifications in the beginning.

My form of HIIT is to sprint 100 meters at the HS track, and then walk 100 meters, and keep alternating. I have done it a few times, but I need to build on it before I can increase the distance and the # of times around the track.

If I remember, HIIT stands for High Intensity Interval Training.

Deborah:

On the one hand, I like crossfit a lot because of some of the coaches that have associated themselves with CF. There are some really top notch people like Mike Burgener (who taught me how to Olympic lift), Dan John, Mark Rippetoe, etc., who are involved with CF. Also, CF emphasizes the types of movements that I am a big proponent of: squats, deadlifts, Olympic lifts, pullups, presses, sprints, gymnastics movements, etc. They also train people to push themselves in a way most people in a lot of commercial gyms have never really pushed themselves before. For that, I commend them.

But, I have some serious problems with their program design and quality control. First, the WOD (workout of the day) often uses inappropriate movements for high reps. For example, high repetition cleans or snatches. These exercises should not be used for high repetitions for several reasons, first, as form breaks down with higher repetitions on these very technically demanding exercises, the person doing them puts him or herself at greater risk of injury. Second, by doing high repetition explosive power movements, the benefits of the exercise diminish quite a bit from what they are designed to accomplish.

Also, the workout design is quite haphazard. It almost seems semi-random, and for this reason, you are often training movement patterns and exercises at fairly high intensity for several days in a row. Moreover, the exercise order often makes no sense. The proper way to train is to but technique/skill exercises first, speed/power exercises second, strength exercises third, hypertrophy exercises fourth, strength endurance exercises fifth, and aerobic exercises last. Sure there are times to intelligently break these rules, but CF workouts often don't intelligently break these rules. This is not to say that individual CF coaches may not be very good and do there own WOD programs that are much better designed than the official WOD program.

Although the goal of CF is to be fit in all of the 10 categories of fitness that they identify, they often seem to think that each one of those 10 categories are relatively equal in importance. They aren't. The foundation of pretty much all fitness is strength. Yet, CF does not seem to recognize this and does not seem to understand that a more focused program that emphasizes strength more than the other qualities means that you will increase your potential to develop the other qualities. Strength is the foundation upon which most other fitness attributes are based. The stronger you are, the greater your ability to develop power or strength endurance, for example. CF does not emphasize the importance of strength enough.

Also, to be a certified CF instructor, all you need is $2,000. $1,000 for a 2-day CF I certification seminar that everyone passes and $1,000 license fee. So the level of quality control just isn't there. There are some very good CF coaches, but there are also a lot of really bad ones who have no business leading 20 or 30 people at once in a training program involving complex movements like the Olympic lifts that can injure someone.

The final knock against CF that I have has to do with the mindless devotion of many of the CF faithful. In many training circles, they are referred to Kool-Aid drinkers because of the cult-like mentality of a lot of the people involved with CF. This is not to say that all CFers are like that -- many are not. But a high enough number who participate in CF do exhibit that trait... and I find that type of mentality highly disturbing. This leads many of the most vocal adherents of CF to make exaggerated claims about it and to treat anyone who is doing anything else as if they are following a false religion.

This sort of dovetails with my feeling that some CFers think that what they are doing is more revolutionary than what it is. This type of training LONG predates CF. Wrestlers, in particular, have used these concepts for YEARS. Indeed, there is a pretty compelling theory that the creator of CF pretty much stole the who CF concept from a book written by a wrestling coach on how to train wrestlers... but that the original is still better than the knock-off. But CF adherents seem to want to claim as theirs any type of GPP (general physical preparedness) training -- which is all that CF really is -- that looks in any way similar. This annoys me to no end. Again, I am not talking about all CFers... but rather the "true believers".

Again, this is a broad-brush response. There are some excellent CF trainers out there whom I wouldn't hesitate to recommend to people. There are CF adherents who recognize the pros and cons of the program and do not have a skewed view of its efficacy or originality. On the whole, despite these criticisms, I like CF because it is the only mass fitness movement that is at least moving in the right direction, even if I still feel it has a lot of problems. And CF is evolving, and seems to be evolving in the right direction.

I have enough training experience to look at some of the stuff that CF does and say, "hey, that's a good idea, I think I might incorporate that concept" and to be able to throw out the stuff that I think is a poor idea or that could be done better. A lot of people don't have that experience. If you don't have enough experience in that regard, you might not know enough to know whether you are training at a CF affiliate with a very good trainer or a poor one.

PL Matt, As with every thing in life there are pros & cons. When I first found CF I was a little turned off for some of the reasons you mention above. As I have dug deeper I have a better understanding of the programming.

You mention the randomness being haphazard. Since they claim it is designed to train for the unknown and unknowable the randomness would make since. Many CF followers are Military and LEO, I wish I was training CF instead of the basic PT we did when I was in the Marine Corps. You do not know what the next obstacle is you may have to face. Life is completely random. We are not scheduled to train legs today and back tomorrow and chest the next day.

High rep technical movements could be very dangerous when not approached with common sense. CF has 3 priority levels.
1st and most important is Techincal/technique you must learn the movements and mechanics
2nd is Consistency, not only doing the movements regularly but with good form on a consistent basis
3rd is Intensity no one should be doing this until they are familiar with the movements to be performed
Broomsticks and empty PVC tubes are common in every CF gym I have visited. The use these tools to teach the movements. on the CF site there is a link to BrandX who scales every days work outs down to various levels that alomst anyone can perform. If you are not familiar with a movement they give links to videos of the exercise.

I don't agree that there isn't enough emphasis on strength. I know I have consistently gotten stronger following the mainsite WOD. I don't think some one with your lifting back ground will gain strength on this program but since it is billed as a GPP that is what I would expect. As I mentioned in my other thread there are some CF programs that are strength biased. Check out the CF Football programming. I work out with a former Pac 10 linemen 2 years removed we use some main site WOD and some CFFB to keep up his strength.

Actually it is $3000 now to become an affiliate of CrossFit. The affiliation fee has gone up. It is still not a good QC method. Greg Glassman has basically said that he wants the free market to take care of itself. At least these instructors did recieve 2 days of instruction. Any one can advertise as a Bootcamp instructor and lead a class of 20-30 people doing what ever movement they last saw on the Biggest Loser. I actually attended a CF gym that I no longer attend because I did not feel they were of the caliper trainer I was looking for. They could cheer me on and watch me do a high intesity workout but when it came to correcting form something was missing. Hopefully as far as this point is concerned the good coaches will far out weigh the poor. Many of the coaches/trainers I have meet in the CF community have a extensive background in fitness/sport training not just any Joe off the street.

The Kool Aid thing is also used by the CF followers they actually use it all the time about themselves. They make jokes like you know your drinking the Kool Aid when """"". I think you are correct about the way some of these Kool Aid drinkers act. I went to the Socal CF Games qualifier last weekend. It was my first event around that group. I was actually very impressed with the way the event was held and how the spectators and participants acted. I think these were mostly veteran CrossFitters and you didn't see that attitute you speak of. I know any many circles you kind of have that same thing happen. Zoners think any other diet is crazy and look down on any one who does it different. Jeepers think monster trucks are a waste of good steel. Blah blah blah.

I don't think Glassman has ever claimed to invent this type of training. I do think he is the first to put it all together in this format. I think he has come up with the most scientific definition of how to measure fitness.

I think you are absolutely correct about not knowing whether you are getting a good trainer or not if you don't have experience. I also think the same can be said about any trainer even at all the big gyms with college kids who took the test and are now trainers at the local big business gym.

I think the best thing for anyone looking to get into a fitness program is to make sure they get referrals from some one with experience and that they trust.

I personally have built a very nice garage gym using CrossFit references to make and or buy equipment and I belong to my local Fitness club. I find benefit in both. My friends come work out with me at home. It actually works out very well.

I'm still wanting to see the response you get from Zone on your other thread.

Later,

CF Matt

Man my grammar was horrible in a lot of that. I was kind of rushing.

Back to the original topic.

I completely agree the Zone needs to show some sponsorship towards a more well rounded athlete or to some strength athletes.

Where is the love for all the other fitness communities?


Matt
Maybe not a legitimate sport but CrossFit shows the Zone some love and gets nothing in return that I can see.

CF Matt, where did your pictures go? I love looking at you!

Matthew-

I have to agree with your original post. I have tried a couple of threads to find out about serious weight trainers and their experiences with the Zone but there do not seem to be too many of that genre here. I was really interested in hearing from others who had a backgroud in this area to see how the Zone diet affected their lifts, what adjustments they had to make in training and what they did to adjust to the extra calorie needs they required, injuries, etc.

My goals have changed somewhat from the first time I picked up a weight at 14, an age when everyone thinks they are going to be the next Steve Reeves, Arnold Schwartzenegger or whatever but I still train hard and try to improve myself. I am in it for the long haul now and try to stay in shape, increase my strength and avoid injury. I have lifted for over 40 yrs. I have not been a competitive lifter or bodybuider but have consistently weight trained during those years without any lengthy break.
For the most part I have been pretty successful with that. I'm 56 now and plan to be weight training when I'm 80.

I would also like to say that those individuals who focus on cardio, Cross-fit, Triathlons and such are serious athletes. I certainly do not mean to slam those folks in any way. What they are doing can require incredibly hard work and dedication. I, myself have concentrated on running, cross-country skiing, and martial arts as a major part of my training at various times in my life although weight training has been my meat and potatoes during that time.

Anyway, I'm hoping to hear more input from weight trainers and their experiences with the Zone diet.

Gonna jump right in on my first post here, a guy who trains hardstyle with kettlebells, I have to agree with the OP that crossfit seems to not devote time to building technique necessary before telling you to do 100 of this, that and the other thing. That can be a good prescription to injury.

Zone could really reach out to a broader audience if they gave more consideration to other athletes. Simple market segmentation really. My forearms are bigger than most triathletes upper arms,that is not ideal conditioning for everybody. No disrespect to any elite athletes, we just all have different ideals and goals. As a soldier in the National guard, GPP is where it is at for me. Wearing 70lbs of gear requires a degree of strength before endurance can be a factor at all.

I would love to see some O lifters PLers decathletes and strongmen sponsored or at lease endorsed by the Zone. The zone seems a natural choice for strength athletes because it is provides plenty of protein.

Hi Greg.

Props on your service. BTW, I served in the USMC (I was in artillery) and I know that CF Matt (I am often referred to here as PL Matt) also served in the USMC (not sure of his MOS).

I agree with you: Strength is the foundation upon which almost all other qualities are based. Without a sufficient strength base, you limit the amount of power and strength-endurance you can build.

In the traditional periodization model, an adult athlete starts with strength training, then moves to power training, then moves to endurance training last. The reason for this is that you will ultimately be able to exhibit greater strength/power endurance if you develop power first. In turn, you will develop greater power if you develop strength first. The traditional model realizes the importance of strength and that it is the foundation for everything.

The wider the strength base, the higher you can build upon it.

This is not to say that multiple qualities cannot be developed at the same time (they can). In fact, that style of training is known as conjugate periodization (which is nothing more than training 2 or more factors at the same time), but even with conjugate periodization, there is a limit to the number of qualities that can be effectively developed co-extensively.

I think for an athlete, CF training might be applied during the so-called anatomical adaptation phase of training, when very general training is a good idea. If you aren't training specifically for a sport, it can probably be incorporated a couple days per week during a strength/power phase (as long as it is done intelligently) and can form the primary method of training during a strength-endurance phase. But you STILL need to have a dedicated strength phase or incorporate more dedicated strength training into CF to get the most out of it.

Personally, my model of training is built more along the lines of an Olympic lifter, power lifter, and wrestler.

The CrossFit “point | counter-point” by Mat and Matthew was enjoyable and interesting. I do, however, have to lean a little more on Matthew’s side here.

To me, CrossFit seems like it wants to be everything to everyone so it pushes too hard in every direction. One thing I have learned in my short life (I am in my 70’s), is that you can’t be the best at everything. And if you try. Like, Roy Batty, you will burn out faster.

While we are pumping our chests out here, I was a paratrooper in both the Army and Air Force.

Hey Matthew,

I am currently doing crossfit and have been seeing improvements in all areas of my fitness, and am pleased with the results I have obtained thus far....but I was considering switching to a oly/power lifting type routine for a while to switch things up.

Is there way to send personal messages on this forum? I had a couple questions I wanted to ask you without cluttering the boards up too much.

Austin, I don't think Matthew has been around much lately.

If you are looking to switch it up there are some good suggestions on the Cf forums about it. Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe for example which will give you strength gains but your met cons will probably suffer after a cycle or 2. There is also the Strength Bias program that BrandX came out with. It keeps some met con stuff while focussing on strength programming. I think to get that journal article you have to be a member thou.

Good luck which ever way you go.

Matt

Can you purchase the article individually? Because I know that you used to be be able to purchase individual articles for like 2.50...

Thanks

I don't think they do the back issue thing anymore. I know you get access to all back issues when you sign up now. It used to be you only would receive the new articles going forward once you sign up. Now you get all the history.

A free site that has some added strength programing is CrossFit Football. Those work outs are really geared towards sport specific strength training. Developed by Pro FB player John Welbourn.

Later,

Matt

Crossfit radio talks about the strength bias. Its the 2nd topic
http://library.crossfit.com/free/au...090209.mp3