Update: re Insulin and ATP -- my Zone Chat
Last Post 30 May 2009 01:18 PM by Robert. 41 Replies.
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Sue
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23 Apr 2009 08:39 PM
Oh...ok. Thanks. I'll try taking those tags out after the alt=
Sue Knorr

Lost 100 lbs 18 yrs ago, off BP meds, thanks to the Zone diet and Zone fish oil.

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Sue
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23 Apr 2009 08:54 PM
Eh, I give up for now. That's not working either. I'll try again over the weekend. Thanks again Matt.
Sue Knorr

Lost 100 lbs 18 yrs ago, off BP meds, thanks to the Zone diet and Zone fish oil.

Consultant of Zone Labs
Matt
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24 Apr 2009 12:19 AM
Well Sue don't feel bad it wasn't you it was the system. they changed something that won't allow the pictures to be entered. I tried to add one of yours and mine were deleted.

The moderator may or may not know about it.

Oh well

By the way you have some great pics of your dishes.

Matt
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Karen
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24 Apr 2009 12:40 AM
Okay, CF Matt ... now I know what happened. Hope they get the photobucket thing fixed soon.
Happy Zoning!
Karen
Matthew
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24 Apr 2009 10:50 AM
It has been a week now and I have still heard nothing back in response to my e-mail.
Sue
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24 Apr 2009 11:24 AM
System...I kinda thought it might be something like that becasue mine was lost around the time they had been making updates to the site. Matt, sorry you lost yours in the process of trying to help me. I'm surprised yours remained here so long when mine disappeared a long time ago. Also interesting is that the text you put in last night's post is showing the photo.

"Oh well", my thought too.

Thanks for your help! Glad you liked the food photos. I've started followin my daughter's advice to show more food and less plate. She's a graphic designer (and I am so not!).
Sue Knorr

Lost 100 lbs 18 yrs ago, off BP meds, thanks to the Zone diet and Zone fish oil.

Consultant of Zone Labs
Sue
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24 Apr 2009 11:58 AM
That whale article, wow! The photos of the guys in the air are astonishing.
Sue Knorr

Lost 100 lbs 18 yrs ago, off BP meds, thanks to the Zone diet and Zone fish oil.

Consultant of Zone Labs
Matthew
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27 Apr 2009 03:42 PM
Still no response.
sue
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27 Apr 2009 04:37 PM
PL Sexy Matt - that's interesting that you still have not had a response. Seems to me when there is something asked that may contradict the general thought it is left untouched.
sue

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cranberrycat
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27 Apr 2009 05:10 PM
Either, the Zone staff are ignoring it, or they are taking their time to come up with a well-rounded and insightful answer. Hope it is the second one!
Cranberrycat

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Matthew
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27 Apr 2009 05:30 PM
Agree, I hope it is the second.
Matthew
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29 Apr 2009 11:10 AM
I finally got an e-mail answer back (at least on the subject of ATP, but not regarding insulin)... here is the e-mail I received:

ATP

Q: I am a bit confused about the distinction between the ATP that can be produced from a gram of stored body fat versus the ATP that can be produced from a gram of stored carbohydrate. You have written that a gram of fat produces 3 x the ATP that can be produced from a gram of carbohydrate. I researched the issue in some biochemistry textbooks and discovered that a Mole of glycogen produces 0.20 Moles of ATP, and a Mole of stored body fat produces 0.49 Moles of ATP. The ratio between these two (~2.5) is almost identical to the ratio between the calories contained in a gram of carbohydrate versus a gram of fat (when using that actual amount of calories contained in each and not the approximation of 4 and 9 that we actually use). So, unless I am missing something, aren't calories derived from carbs and fats in our food an almost exact approximation of how much ATP can be generated from them?

A: The conversion of dietary calories into ATP is complex and never 100 percent of the theoretical conversion of dietary calories into an equivalent amount of chemical energy. Under ideal conditions, one molecule of glucose can make 36 molecules of ATP. Under less than ideal conditions, it can drop to as low as 2 molecules of ATP. One molecule of fat can make 108 molecules of ATP. This is because most of the ATP conversion takes place in the mitochondria and is dependent on the number of two-carbon fragments that previously entered into the Krebs cycle. Since a fatty acid has 9 two-carbon fragments versus 3 two-carbon fragments in the glucose, you can make a lot more ATP from fats versus carbohydrates under even the most ideal conditions. Even when you take into account the differences in calories, a calorie of fat will make 33 percent more ATP than a gram of carbohydrate.


This is basically what was written by Dr. Sears. Of course, this appears to be slightly in error, since a gram of carbohydrate is actually less than 4 Calories and a gram of fat is actually more than 9 calories. But, if this response is accurate, that means that the ATP production from stored body fat is approximately 20% higher than the ATP production from stored carbohydrate under the same conditions.

As I mentioned above, this may mean a slight reduction in the calories required on a daily basis from the various calculators out there is one is filling in missing calories from fat instead of carbohydrates, but it still means that extra calories have to come from somewhere.

For example, most calculators out there put my daily caloric requirements at 3,200 calories. Assuming for the sake of argument that this number is arrived at based on carbohydrates entirely (which I am not entirely convinced it is), that would mean I would get the equivalent amount of ATP from fat by consuming slightly less than 2,700 calories worth of fat.

But, to complicate matters more, no one is eating a 100% fat or 100% carb diet. Even under the basic Zone diet (no 40-30-30), a full 70% of my daily calories are coming from non-fat sources. Protein is a very inefficient source of ATP, and carbs apparently produce about 20% less ATP than fat. So this lead me to believe my actual maintenance caloric needs are still higher than 2,700 calories per day. Under a 40-30-30 approach, consuming 1g of protein per lb of LBM, I end up eating just under 2,000 calories per day. But my short-fall is still greater than 700 calories per day because 70% of those calories are from proteins and carbohydrates (which are less efficient energy sources). I am no mathematician, but it seems pretty clear to me, that I will still need to fill those extra energy requirements. I don't have figures on the ATP that can be produced from protein (and frankly, protein is only used as a source of energy when there aren't enough fats or carbohydrates to meet energy requirements), but, even assuming we use the 1.2:1 number that means the 2,700 caloric requirement number has to be adjusted back up to account for the fact that 1,400 of my calories are from non-fat sources. These 1,400 non-fat calories would (adjusting for ATP) would leave me with about a 200 calorie shortfall. So that means that my caloric requirements would need to be adjusted back up again to about 2,900 calories. And when you factor in that protein is a far less efficient source of energy than either carbs or fat, obviously, the numbers would have to be adjusted upwards again.

Under a traditional model of calculating my caloric needs (i.e., using the calculators), I would need an additional 1,200 calories. Assuming the ATP production of fat to carbohydrate is 1.2:1 (which is more accurate than the 1.33:1 number given above accounting for the actual calories contained in carbs versus fat, not their approximate numbers) and assuming that the caloric requirement calculators are based on carbohydrates (an assumption I am not sure is valid), also assuming that protein isn't being used for energy requirements, but rather all my energy requirement are being met by carbohydrate and fat sources, if I want to fill my additional caloric requirements with fat only, that would mean eating an additional 1,000 calories of fat per day (1,200/1.2), meaning a total daily caloric consumption of 3,000 calories. This would break down to about 600 calories from protein, 800 calories from carbohydrate, and 1,600 calories from fat. The percentage would be p20% c26.7% f53.3%.

Given the number of scientific studies out there showing that carbohydrate consumption that low negatively impacts the performance of athletes, I have to question, even if the ATP figures are correct, whether there are other factors that are coming into play outside of ATP that are more important. Now, my actual strategy is to consume 1.5g of protein and 2.0g carbs per lb. Admittedly, I do this more by the eye-ball method, but this equates more along the lines of 900-1,000 calories from protein and 1,200-1,400 calories from carbohydrate. The remaining caloric requirements end up being filled by fat. Interestingly, this approach get me back to approximately 40:30:30.

Perhaps I eat more calories doing it this way than I would need if I were eating the additional energy in the form of fat, but I am fairly convinced that I benefit from the higher amount of protein and carbohydrates in my diet.

Anyway, I am still waiting to hear back about my questions regarding exercise nutrition and insulin.
sue
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29 Apr 2009 08:54 PM
Matt:

Thanks for sharing the reply. It seems to me, they basically quoted the book, just rewrote it a bit. I agree with you about percentages. I believe in the other thread, I commented on the fact that one would end up eating 50% or greater of their day's calories in fat and I'm still not convinced that is the healthiest way to go. I can agree with the 40:30:30, but to push fat up over 50%, I don't agree and I don't believe the Sears does either. He calls the Zone a low fat diet, well if you get close or over 50% in fat, it's not longer Low Fat.

I agree you need the additional protein and carbs. I believe that if you are doing intense exercise, you would probably burn up the extra insulin. Just my thought, because it would be forced to try and get glucose back into your muscles.

Let's hope they decide to answer the rest of your question.
sue

I don't know about the future, but I know who holds the future....
cranberrycat
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29 Apr 2009 10:25 PM
PL Matt, did they give you any references? Seems as if maybe they had Barry respond to that one, as he did here, so maybe that is why it took so long for a reply. If it were me, I would send a reply back, and ask for some references. Of course, if you DO get references, then I wonder if those references would be anything that any one of us could understand?!?
Cranberrycat

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sue
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01 May 2009 04:08 PM
PL Matt: Guess what? your question made the front page of Dr. Sears.com. I just went over there to submit a question and you question in on the web page. Not in as much depth I don't think, but it's there along with the answer. Go check it out.
sue

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cranberrycat
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01 May 2009 06:42 PM
KEWL!
Cranberrycat

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Robert
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30 May 2009 01:18 PM
Hi, I just wanted to add a few thoughts about this discussion. I thought your questions showed a lot of thought and don't want to put them down. I simply see you did not receive an actual answer and thought you deserved one after all that hard work.

I think that there is more to the math than is being explained here, and the expert reply is no more informed the question. I wish you had received a more honest "I have no idea", as you did from the first person you asked. The main problem I see is that the term mole and gram are both being used in a similar manner. You can't really compare moles of different substances like this. There is no conversion to translate moles to grams. This is because every different molecule has a different molecular weight. For example, a mole of carbon weighs 8 grams. A mole of oxygen weighs 16 grams. To find the molecular weight (how much 1 mole weighs) of a particular substance you have to know it's chemical composition. Then you simply add up the molecular weights of the component elements. For example, water (chemical formula: H20), contains 2 hydrogen atoms and one oxygen and therefore has a molecular weight of 18 (2 x 1g + 16g = 18). That means one mole of water weighs 18g.

Now in order to discuss the moles of fat, you would have to know the exact chemical formulas for fat. The problem is there are hundreds (thousands?) of different fat molecules. The same goes for protein and doubly for carbs. Therefore the calculations on moles of fat or protein or carbs actually mean almost nothing in real life. One gram of fat from olive oil would be completely different from one gram of fat from chicken. You actually have almost no way to calculate how many moles of fat you might be eating in any given meal so doing math on the moles of fat has almost no value for you except as an interesting trivia fact.

Just for fun, the chemical formula for adenosine 5'-triphosphate (atp) is C10H13N5O13P3Na3. The molecular weight can actually vary from about 500 - 600 grams per mole depending on which form is present. On top of that, the efficiency of a particular mitochondria in a given cell to form a particular amount of net atp can vary from person to person, day to day, minute to minute, and from cell to cell. You can't really calculate how much you will get and some atp is used in the cycle to make other atp, and some is wasted.

I hope this is closer to the actual answer that you deserve after spending so much time developing a good question.
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