So, I decided to use Zone chat to talk to someone about two of the issues that have been discussed on this board of late: (1) whether calories in fat and carbs are an accurate measure of the relative amounts of ATP that can be produced from each; and (2) regarding the fact that increasing insulin levels post exercise (through high GI carbs + protein + BCAAs) might actually be a good thing.

I spoke with a woman whose name I think was Marylin. I linked her to the threads where these topics were being discussed. She basically told me on the ATP issue that my math looked right, but that she wasn't 100% sure if I was right or not. On the Insulin issue, she essentially told me that it was out of her area of expertise.

She suggested that I send my questions to a gentleman by the name of Dave Schreck at wellnesssupport@zoneliving.com because he would be better able to answer these questions. I plan on composing an e-mail asking him some of the questions that have been raised and linking to the ATP thread and BCAA thread to see what their take is on all of this.

I'll let you all know what I get back.

Dave works closely with Barry Sears, so it will be interesting to see what they have to say.

Matthew, I can’t speak about the amounts of ATP, but everything I have read in the last several years backs up that an insulin spike post workout will:

1. Rapidly replenish the low glycogen stores in the muscles.

2. Decrease the muscle protein breakdown that occurs with exercise (one by lowering cortisol levels).

3. Rapidly force further increases in muscle protein synthesis and/or restore muscle-protein synthesis in endurance athletes.

The recommendation is usually to consume (one meal/drink?) of 0.8g of carbohydrate and 0.4 g of protein / kg of body weight immediately after training.

That's a 2:1 ratio of carbohydrate to protein.

I find this on just about every strength training website I go on; touted by well known people like Will Brink & Dr John M Berardi.

Raymond, is that recommendation supposed to be based on bodyweight, or just on lean body mass? Just wondering, because I would think the amount of protein would differ, considering one's individual lean body mass. Matthew's weight of lean body mass alone is about equal to my total bodyweight. But, his protein needs are much more than mine.

Raymond:

Thank you.

I have actually cited to Brink and Berardi in some of the threads here discussing this topic, along with other research supporting the anabolic properties of Insulin.

For those interested, I am copying and pasting the e-mail I actually sent below:

****

Mr. Schreck:

I was referred by a woman named Marilyn at Zone Chat when she was unable to answer some of my technical questions and she suggested that I contact you. There are two issues in particular that I am hoping you can help clear up for me, that have been the source of some discussion at the Zone Athletic Performance forum.

First is on the subject matter of ATP production from carbohydrates versus fat. Here is a link to the discussion on the subject at the Zone forums: http://www.zonediet.com/Community/F...fault.aspx

Basically, the question I have is whether a calorie's worth of fat and a calorie's worth of carbs produce the same amount of ATP. Dr. Sears has written that a gram of fat produces 3x the amount of ATP as a gram of carbohydrate. I am assuming that Dr. Sears is rounding this number. I was curious about this and to see if it had any ramifications for an athlete (like myself) that were different than using calories. From what I have been able to find, using the actual numbers of calories in a gram of fat and a gram of carb (rather than rounded numbers of 9 calories and 4 calories) is that fat has approximately 2.5x as many calories per gram. When I looked at some biochemistry books and resources with respect to ATP production from stored glycogen and adipose, I found out that 1 mole of glycogen can produce 0.20 moles of ATP and that 1 mole of fat can produce 0.49 moles of ATP. When I looked at the ratio between these two, the number also came out to be approximately 2.5:1. So my question is whether the calories in fat and carbohydrates also accurately represents the correct ratio of ATP that each can produce?

My second question has to do with workout nutrition for a serious strength/power athlete (which I am) who is already fairly low in body fat and wants to increase muscle mass in the fastest and most efficient manner possible. Here is the link to the discussion on the forum concerning this subject: http://www.zonediet.com/Community/F...fault.aspx

From what I have read (and the strategy I am using), it is highly beneficial for athletes such as myself to consume high GI carbs + protein (and BCAAs) with minimal or no fat during and immediately following strength training and that during this window of time, raising insulin levels is actually a good thing and not a bad thing because Insulin is highly anabolic (particularly during this window of opportunity). The suggested ratio of high GI carbs to protein that I have read about are between 2:1 to 4:1. On page 2 of that thread, I quoted and cited several studies I was able to pull from pubmed regarding the anabolic properties of insulin. It also appears that Dr. Sears' colleague, Dr. Jonny Bowden, approves of this type of exercise nutrition. Some of my fellow Zoners have suggested that this is not a good strategy because increasing insulin levels decreases GH and will impair my recovery ability and take me out of the Zone, but the research I have been able to find on this subject matter seems to indicate otherwise (and since fat loss is NOT a goal of mine, I am not concerned about whatever fat loss I am missing out on by spiking insulin levels). So, I guess this is a long-winded way of asking whether, for someone in my situation (I train in excess of 20 hours a week and am engaged in strength/power sports and trying to increase muscle mass), this strategy is a good idea? I eat Zone balanced meals pretty much the rest of the time, but this is the one time of the day (training) that I believe eating differently has beneficial effects. Am I right in this regard? I noticed in one or more of the articles about endurance cyclists posted on the Zone website that they appear to be consuming similar high GI + protein meals while competing (although there is no breakdown of ratios).

Thank you very much for your time and I appreciate in advance any help you can provide me in answering these question.

Well-written.

I think this is really interesting stuff, and I am anxious to see what you get back. Keep us informed!

Thanks CC.

I will be very interested to hear back from Mr. Schreck myself.

Interestingly, I don't think Marilyn (the woman at Zone chat) is used to getting questions like those that I was asking. At first, she simply tried to link me to an article about recovery. When I told her I had already read that article and that I still had questions and had done some research on pubmed and linked her to the thread, I was expecting her to just give me a run-around full of pat answers without any explanation. To my surprise, she didn't do that.

To her credit, she told me to hold on so she could look at the thread and see if she could get someone who was there who was more qualified to answer my question. When she couldn't, to my surprise, she admitted that she didn't know and gave me Mr. Schreck's e-mail address and told me that he would be better able to answer my question.

I have to say, the answer "I don't know" is refreshing to hear. Too many people, even "experts," have trouble admitting that they don't know something. I have tremendous respect for people who can admit when they don't and not fear feeling foolish about saying so. So, even though Marilyn wasn't able to answer my questions, she didn't pretend like she could or that she knew the answers when she didn't, so she definitely has my respect.

I often find that getting asked a question that I don't know the answer to is a great opportunity to learn something new (even if I am asking the question of myself).

Matt, I agree, I am glad that they just referred you to Dave Shreck. I have spoken with him via email in the past, as well (not sure if I said that before).

Maybe I'm a dunce, okay probably a dunce, but I don't get the point. This "window" is a short post-workout period where nutrition is fast-tracked to the muscles. This short window doesn't have enough time to degrade proteins to amino acids, absorb them, shunt them though the liver, and ultimately be available for absorption into the muscles. For sugars, it's practically a free ride not needing insulin to go from the gut to the muscles. A zone meal will dampen insulin response but all that does is close that magical window sooner?

Amino acids enter the muscles on the counter-current gradient from the blood stream; One more step that slows down the process of ultimate muscle repair post-workout. It seems logical to have a protein meal hours before the workout, not after. You can't force more amino acids into the muscles. But if you sate the muscles then force sugar in with insulin, then the amino acids turn into muscle more efficiently.

Just an opionion.

kevin

Kevin:

Perhaps for the reasons you identify, there are many that suggest using whey protein (which is easily and quickly digested) along with BCAA supplements and that this supplementation protocol should actually begin 15 minutes or so before training, continue through training, and finish within 15-30 minutes after training.

I cannot tell you the precise mechanisms through which it works, but I do know that studies have shown that post exercise supplementation with both high GI carbs + protein is more effective than just post-exercise carbs (and both are superior to no post exercise nutrition). So, while I cannot tell you how the proteins and BCAAs are getting to the muscles that quickly, it is clear that something is happening, even when the meal is on post-exercise only.

Matt - Thanks for posting you email above. I will be looking forward to the reply as well. I also agree it's great to hear someone say "I don't know, but I'll try to get you to someone who might." Refeshing!

Cranberrycat, I believe it is based on total body weight and is Calculated mainly for hardcore weight lifters. However, it is like many other formulas which can be tweaked depending on how hardcore and disciplined you are.

PL Matt, I am very interested as well to see the answer. Your email is well written and deserves a well thoughtout/researched response.

In the CF community there are a lot of strength training individuals also not just the met con training that so many hear about. Mark Rippetoe, Lon Kilgore, Olympic Lifting Coach Mike Burgener (sp) there is a CFSB (Strength Biased) program out now and the recently released CF Football run by Pro Football player John Welbourn.

The Zone is the base diet pushed by many of these groups. The Paleo diet is also followed but with an emphasis on Zone quantities. They use a ton of variations for different individual requirements. Robb Wolf who conducts the Nutrition Certification for CrossFit has also done a lot of strength training. He suggests a post work out meal of 50% of your days carbs using something like sweet potatoes & apple sauce. Dense carbs, low protein & realitively low fiber. He only suggests this on the heavy training days. The reasons I have heard for the lack of protein is that it slows the carb consumption which is counter intuitive to what you want post workout. He also promotes IF.

I definetly don't know the answers but figured I would share what I have been seeing lately.

I really like the stuff I have been seeing on evolutionary studies of nutrition instead of just the stuff from the last 50 years. Nutritional Science is really in it's infancy compared to the other sciences.

By using Zone quantities as a base to build on and Paleo foods for quality the Crossfit Community is seeing some amazing results not only from elite athletes trying to reach the top of their game but also the average Joe/Jane just trying get healthy.

This is a little off subject but you would probably enjoy some of this on the Lamalera Whale Hunters of Indonesia.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...hands.html

Robb's current blog has stuff back to Sept 2007. http://robbwolf.com/

CF Matt

I know for a fact that Mike Burgener does not use nor tout the Zone diet. I know coach Burgerner. I know how he had his son eat. I also am pretty sure that Coach Rippetoe does not use the Zone diet (I have exchanged numerous e-mails with him and spoken regularly on phone to his partner, Coach Glenn Pendlay). And I would be willing to bet that neither does Lon Kilgore. I couldn't tell you about coach Welbourne.

Also, I really don't know of any elite athletes strength athletes using the Zone diet. Maybe they are out there, but I am unaware of them. And frankly, I don't include CF participants as elite athletes (no offense).

BTW, I have still received no response to my e-mail.

Sorry the way I typed that was wrong. You are correct. Mark Rippetoe pushes a gallon of milk a gay for his athletes.

Those were meant to be two seperate subjects. That there are strength individuals involved with CF and it isn't all met con like some people think. I hadn't read your other thread.

My experience with Coach B is through one of my buddys. He trained with Mike for a couple years also.

Have you seen the most recent Games qualifier results? The work output these guys are producing is pretty amazing.

In Socal the top guys were rowing 2000m at a pace that would have put them in the top 50 of the US according to Concept 2 website. That isn't elite status rower but I would lilke to see those rowers go do the rest of the work out that the qualifiers did.

Not all participants are elite I completely agree. I would say the elite status would only be used for the top athletes only.

No offense taken I am far from and don't plan to be at an elite level in any type of fitness.

Later,

CF Matt

Hey Matt (Photobucket Matt), how are you?

Could you maybe do me a favor and post the Photobucket text that's in your siggie box here? It might help me figure out mine. I'm still trying to get it back to the way I used to have it (scroll over photo and click to go to my album) but none of the link choices I'm finding there seem to work here now.

If you can't, that's ok.

Thanks!

BTW, the Concept II rower is about the only thing my home gym is missing. Well, that and a reverse hyper machine (I am planning to build one that can be used in the power rack).

Here are some pics of my gym, including some pics from before I got my mats and had to rearrange everything. Not pictured are some of my smaller training gizmos and my 90 lb. throwing dummy.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Checkmate_90067/P5180006.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Checkmate_90067/P5180005.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Checkmate_90067/P5180004.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Checkmate_90067/P5180001.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Checkmate_90067/P5180003.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Checkmate_90067/P7150007.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Checkmate_90067/P7150006.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Checkmate_90067/P7150005.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Checkmate_90067/P7150004.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Checkmate_90067/P7150003.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Checkmate_90067/P7150002.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b325/Checkmate_90067/P7150001.jpg

Yikes, now there's two Photobucket Matts. Ha!

We will have to go with Karen's abbreviations:

PL Matt (for powerlifter Matt)
CF Matt (for crossfitter Matt)

Sue, that is the exact text in my profile.

Matt, you have a great set up there. I'm not quite there yet but getting close.

This is one of the only pics I have. http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n123/mcharney/DSC06134.jpg
There is some home made stuff. Various weight med balls, DIY kettlebells sand bags dumb bells. The rest of my stuff is 4 pull up bars of various heights thickness 1 spins and swings, 500 plus O weights, 350 Bumpers, 200 std weights, Squat rack Stamina rower until I find a C2, Spin bick, Body bag, Plyo boxes, Squat rack a bunch of duffle bags for thoughing caring and doing odd lifts, a roman chair until I fork out the money for a GHD. I put down 3/4" thick horse stall mats throughout. It works for now and is a work in process.

You definitely have a great set up. Where are you? I see the water, east or west coast.

Maybe we could share some programming I'm always open for new stuff.

My buddy did a crazy one today from CFFB earlier in the week. Dl 65% of max 1 rep 30 secs rest 15 rnds, then did 21, 15, 9 of 135# PP, Ring Dips, Burpees & Calories rowing. He never lost form throughout on the PP. It was a great WO done in under 15 minutes after the DL.

Have a good one. I'll try to get back on here in the next couple days.

Later,

Matt

Well that didn't work.

I'll have to try again later. I think it is the HTML text.

CF Matt:

I am in Los Angeles. I live in a house in the Hollywood Hills.

Yes, thanks Matt, I used the HTML text last year when I first set it up and had it working here, but now that's not working for me. I thought all I'd done before was copy the link text under the first photo in the album and pasted it into my signature box in my profile here. Maybe there was another step that I've forgotten about, but so far I haven't hit on what it is. Guess I'll just keep trying things.

Sue the HTML text on my page looks like this. <a href="http://s111.photobucket.com/albums/n123/mcharney/?action=view¤t=fat.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n123/mcharney/fat.jpg" border="0" alt=

I deleted "fat"></a> from after the =

It is the third text down under the picture HTML code




Matt, I am in Yorba Linda. What only 30 miles and a 2 hour drive : )

I have to go play with the kids.


<a href="http://s531.photobucket.com/albums/dd352/SueK24/?action=view¤t=DSC09678.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i531.photobucket.com/albums/dd352/SueK24/DSC09678.jpg" border="0" alt="Sue, Zone, meal"></a>

It should look like that.