I have seen on the internet several sites that claim palm oil, coconut oil and sunflower oil are healthy oils and others that claim they are inflammatory. Olive oil always seems to be touted as the good guy. I believe the Adkins protein drinks have sunflower oil yet I think the bars use olive oil and palm kernel oil and coconut oil. Zone Perfect bars seem to use sunflower oil in them, if I am not mistaken Barry Sears Zone products use olive oil. I would really like to use the right products and see that I am getting the right oils to reduce inflammation but there seems to be a diversity of opinion out there. Guidane would be appreciated. Should olive oil (besides fish oil) be the only oil to use extensively?

Hi Jerry!

Yes, olive oil. Almond oil is also excellent. Note that extra virgin olive oil should not be heated. It should be reserved for use on foods after they have been cooked, and for cold applications such as in salad dressings and smoothies. If you wish to cook with olive oil use the extra light (refined) type. Saturated fats and Omega 6 fats (safflower oil, sunflower oil, corn oil, soy oil etc.) should be avoided in the Zone diet as much as possible, with the exception of organic toasted sesame oil. We need only very small amounts of omega 6 which we get from food itself. For a more thorough understanding, you can find all of this info explained in great detail in Zone books.

This is actually another area where I am not in 100% agreement with Dr. Sears. I happen to think that saturated fats from healthy sources like coconut oil and even from some animal sources can be very healthy for you. You may want to read some of what Dr. Jonny Bowden has written on the subject. I mention him in particular because he is a low carb proponent and is a colleague of Dr. Sears and has collaborated with him (in fact, Dr. Sears wrote the forward to his book "Living the Low Carb Lifestyle").

According to Dr. Bowden, saturated fat (and cholesterol) appears to have been unfairly demonized due to some shoddy scientific research, and views on it are changing. Also, for men, cholesterol has a lot to do with testosterone production, which is something else to consider.

Personally, I think getting fats from a range of sources is a good idea. I consume a TON of omega-3 (I have something like 18 grams of fish oil capsules every day). I also use a lot of olive oil (in addition to salads, I usually start my day with a shot glass of olive oil in some low sodium v-8 along with some fruit and a hard-boiled egg). But I also get healthy saturated fats from egg yolks (I know Dr. Sears doesn't like the AA in them, but I think I have enough Omega-3s and other healthy fats to compensate), coconut oil and various healthy animal and vegetable sources.

Dr. Bowden also suggests that saturated fats might well be unhealthy for people who consume a very high carb diet, but really aren't a concern for people eating more moderate levels of carbs (like the amount you eat in the Zone).

Sue and Matthew-

Thanks for the info. I will check ut some of the information provided. What about soybeean oil and soy proten. i see that it is used quite extensively in health products including in Zone products. But I also see information that indicates that it is inflammatory. I wouuld assume that the use of soy products sould be limited. As a healty source of protein would wheyt be a better choice than soy.

You're welcome Jerry!

Soy oil, no, because it's an omega 6 fat. Omega 6 fats are avoided in the Zone because they promote the production of bad eicosanoids, they raise LDL, and they lower HDL. Toasted organic sesame oil is the one omega 6 oil that is the exception, because it also contains some anti-inflammatory properties.

Soy protien is an excellent protein source for the Zone (you can read more about it in THE SOY ZONE and THE TOP 100 ZONE FOODS). It enhances the benefits you'll have form the Zone diet because it has less of an impact on insulin levels than amimal protein does.

Adding to what Matthew said in support of saturated fat, I have also done some reading here and there on the subject.

I read a book "The Maker's Diet". There is actually quite a bit of "familiar" stuff in there, lots of lines can be drawn between this diet and the Zone. But, what stands out in this book is that the author advocates eating foods in their more natural form. The egg yolk should be eaten with the egg. Milk should be consumed as whole milk (the author goes further with this, but I am not quite there yet). Yogurt should be whole fat yogurt. The reason behind this is that the fat is necessary to aid in the digestion of the dairy, and to basically absorb all of the nutrients. Without the dairy fat, the food isn't used by the body adequately.

That's interesting, CC! I'm understanding you to say that if my dairy products aren't full fat, my bones are not getting all the nutrients (calcium) that they could be getting. Is this right? Matt states he gets enough Omega-3 fish oil to offset the AA in these fats. Does the book say anything in regard to making sure you get enough Omega-3 fish oil?

Yes, this book talks about supplementing omega-3. But, this author isn't the fatty acid expert that Sears is, and so he doesn't really talk about arachidonic acid, or go into much detail about it.

Actually, I believe that the author's point was that about the digestability of the dairy, but it goes to say that if we aren't digesting the dairy adequately, that we could be missing out on absorbing the nutrients.

After reading the book, I have incorporated some changes into my diet: I base my diet on fresh or frozen produce for my carbs, naturally lean cuts of meat, switched my protein powder to one that has a very readable ingredients list, and switched my yogurt and cottage cheese to full fat versions. I am not eating boxed or processed foods. I may make an exception when it comes to something like tomato sauce, but I haven't really gotten there yet, haven't made anything recently that required those ingredients.

Sue-

Since soy oil is bad, would soy protein not also be bad? or has the soy oil typically been removed from the soy protein powder?

I believe, if you look at a cannister of soy protein powder, that most of the fat/oil has been removed.

Also, keep in mind that soy generally does not contain a huge amount of fat, and that soy oil is extracted from a mass of soybeans. In their natural state, the oil isn't as huge of a factor.

Another thought, as I was re-reading Matthew's post. I think that there may be something to the fact that saturated fat has been associated with production of elevated levels of bad cholesterol for years. However, generally, this has also been associated with consumption of a high carb diet.

Then, during the Atkins movement a few years ago, Atkins dieters were eating all kinds of animal protein (which obviously contained this "bad" saturated fat), yet their lipid profiles were coming back just fine, even improved. I can say that there were a few doctors at the hospital that I worked, who were following Atkins and advocating it for their patients. One doc was an internist, and he lost a huge amount of weight on Atkins, and has not gained it back. His lipids were just fine. An associate of his (skinny as a rail), was putting his patients on this diet. Both of them have moderated their views on the Atkins since then, but they are primarily responsible for advocating for the "carb-controlled diet" that the dieticians were totally against providing.

Nowadays, these 2 docs are putting their patients on diets similar to the Zone, although they do not necessarily call it the Zone.

No Jerry, soy protein is fine, even though it contains a bit of the oil. Most of the proteins you eat for the Zone contain omega 6 fat in very small amounts. You need a little omega 6 (it's an essential fatty acid; your body can't make it), but adding it in oil form is overdoing it.

Barry Sears considers soy protein to be one of the best proteins for the Zone because it has less of an impact on insulin levels than animal proteins.

I wouldn't touch soy protein with a 10-foot pole, particularly as a man, since it has some pretty negative health consequences (and if you are man can suppress testosterone and raise estrogen levels). Soy is pretty much crap for your bodies that has been shoved down our throats by great marketing and politicking by the ADM corporation. I suggest you do a little poking around about the health dangers of soy... it ain't pretty. Soy may not impact insulin levels negatively, but it has plenty of other negative side-effects that far outbalance whatever positives it does have for me to ever touch it.

I also wouldn't touch milk that has been pasteurized and homogenized with a 10-foot pole. Raw milk is very healthy for you. The crap they sell in grocery stores is poison, in my opinion. Also, think about where your milk and beef come from. The stuff you buy in the grocery store is raised in tiny disease infested cages, fed a food it would never eat in nature (grain), and injected full of every hormone known to man (in part because the animal is so unhealthy from its living conditions). Is it any wonder that the milk and meat of such animals would be crap (particularly when the milk is then heat pasteurized which kills off all the healthy enzymes).

Maybe pasteurization is necessary for the milk that comes from such animals, but it isn't when it comes from cattle raised on grass, not injected with hormones, and not crowded into tiny cages. Hell, the meat from grass-fed beef is health food and not something to avoid. It is high in Omega-3, low in Omega-6, and low in saturated fat (and the saturated fat it does have is healthy for you).

Milk and beef are things we are told to avoid... and if we are talking about the crap they sell in grocery stores, that is pretty good advice. But if you are lucky enough to have access to raw milk (unfortunately it has been outlawed in most states thanks to successful campaigning by the milk lobby) milk is perfectly healthy. If you can afford to buy grass fed beef, it is perfectly healthy as well. The same goes for our eggs, poultry, and seafood. If you can get it from healthy animals (not those raised on corporate farms) you get health food. If you get the stuff usually found in stores... well, that's a different story...

Unfortunately, particularly in these tough economic times, it can be costly to eat these foods in the way nature intended them (if you can even find them at all).

A great place to start is to see if there are any farmer's markets near you. My girlfriend and I are lucky enough to live near several and try to do a great deal of our food-buying from them, including our produce, herbs and spices.

<div class='NTForums_Quote'>Posted By Matthew on 04/10/2009 8:51 PM

I wouldn't touch soy protein with a 10-foot pole,

Also, think about where your milk and beef come from. The stuff you buy in the grocery store is raised in tiny disease infested cages, fed a food it would never eat in nature (grain), and injected full of every hormone known to man



If you can get it from healthy animals (not those raised on corporate farms) you get health food. If you get the stuff usually found in stores... well, that's a different story... (and the saturated fat it does have is healthy for you).</div>

Matt,
This is a great post! (even though I chopped it up there)

I still visit here on occasion but I don't contribute here much any more as I've drifted away from the Zone diet towards a VLC way of eating. The more I read about calcium, fiber, vitamin supplements and 'heart healthy' products the more cynical I become about our food supply. The only reason we need the above-mentioned additions to our diets is due to the other junk we put in our bodies.

I've added a link to a Gary Taubes lecture. He addresses the junk science that has shaped our food choices for the last generation. If you've got the time, it's worth a look--it's a long one (1:11:35). The first 20 minutes are evidential; the rest is a good look at the studies that are accepted as truth, despite the conflicting views. (I'd FF to about 20:00)

http://darwinstable.wordpress.com/2...e-get-fat/

This one explains how the recommended amount of fiber will add 200 grams of carbs to your diet. I don't eat many fruits/vegetables these days.

http://www.fibermenace.com/fibermen...ut_fm.html

Thanks again for the post!

Tom

Tom:

Thank you for that video, it was excellent.

I am glad to see that someone else here is familiar with the health dangers of soy and from eating animal protein from unhealthy animals. I cannot say I am a proponent of the idea of eating very low carbohydrates, however, at least when it comes to the concept of avoiding carbs even from vegetable and fruit sources. I happen to believe that a diet rich in fruits and vegetables of all varieties (but particularly those that are quite dense in nutrients) is a good thing. I try to have fruits and vegetables with pretty much every single meal I have. I also try to eat a diet that is rich in a wide variety of animal proteins (but I try to get it from healthy animals) as well as healthy fats (I am not, however, a saturated fat-phobe, at least when it comes to saturated fats from healthy animals, vegetables and fruit sources like coconuts).

...TANGENT TIME...

I will say this, however, and I have written as much in the athletic forum: high insulin levels is not necessarily a bad thing all the time. You see, just like elevated insulin levels can result in higher fat storage, so too (when timed correctly) they can result in higher levels of muscle accumulation. Indeed, very briefly, this is mentioned in that lengthy videos (the concept that insulin acts to build muscle). Now, the video is approaching things from an "obesity" and "health" perspective and not an athletic perspective, so I understand why it was not discussed more fully. However, for athletes, raising insulin levels at the right times is very important to speeding recovery, preventing muscle tissue break down, and aiding the accumulation of lean muscle.

In fact, a dirty little secret in the somewhat strange world of professional bodybuilding is the use of insulin injections. Everyone has heard of steroids, HGH and some may have even heard of IGF-1 being used by bodybuilders and professional athletes. What is less well-known is the massive use of insulin by bodybuilders in particular as a means to gain freakish amounts of muscle. If you compare the bodybuilders of the 1960s and 19070s to the bodybuilders of the mid-1980s forward, you will see how freakishly large bodybuilders have become. Steroids were always a part of the sport. Sure HGH and IGF-1 got added to the scene in the 1980s and 1990s, but the major factor (according to many insiders) for how much larger bodybuilders have become (while still staying freakishly lean), is insulin.

Insulin is considered by many to be the most anabolic hormone in the human body. But the catch is, it is only anabolic during certain periods of time. During other periods of time it operates to store fat, not build (or repair) lean muscle. It turns out that working out intensely changes the hormones of the body and during periods of intense training and for a brief window of time afterward, elevated insulin levels are a good thing for athletes (assuming that carbs, protein and BCAAs are present), not a bad thing. Obviously, for those not training intensely, elevating insulin levels isn't going to have these beneficial effects, it will do nothing but store fat.

Now (and again, I approach this from an athletic perspective) for those of us who don't really plan on injecting synthetic insulin to get these benefits (just like I won't take synthetic testosterone, i.e., steroids, synthetic HGH, or synthetic IGF-1), how do you go about getting the benefits of high insulin levels while avoiding the negatives? Pretty easy, actually. During the period starting immediately pre-training through the period immediately post training, eat high GI carbs (the same ones we are supposed to avoid the rest of time) coupled with protein and BCAAs and little to no fat (which slows down the insulin spike). During this period of time, the insulin acts to transport (insulin is a transport hormone after all) glycogen back into the muscle cells as well as provide the muscles with all the building blocks it needs to repair and build muscle.

BTW, if you wanted to know exactly when it is that bodybuilders inject insulin, if you guess immediately after training, you would be 100% correct (at least from what I have read). Obviously, given the foregoing, this makes a lot of sense. I think the upshot of a lot of this is that we are all agreed that diets can affect hormones. But so too can other factors, like stress or training. Given our growing body of knowledge in this area, we can adjust our diets according to both these hormonal factors in order to get our bodies to respond the way we want them to and increase health.

The major quibble I have with most of the low carb diets out there and all the low carb gurus is that they assume what is optimal for the general population is also optimal for a special population (in this case, serious athletes). The way I eat 22 hours of the day would make any low carb guru happy -- but it is very different that the way I eat during my training periods.

...END TANGENT...

I have to partially agree with the soy issue. I don't regularly eat soy-based foods, but from previous experience, I have noticed that I DON'T stay in the Zone when I use soy as my protein. And, it is supposed to have less of an impact on insulin levels? Hmmm...

My more recent reading has taken me to the realization that soy can be enjoyed... but not in these artificially manufactured forms that it has taken. Rather, how about enjoying it as "edamame"?

As for the milk issue, I agree in principle with Matt. But, this is going to be a hard one to change. Around our area, raw milk is just not available. I am not sure it is considered a "poison", but I am sure that a lot of the beneficial things about milk are destroyed in the pasteuration process. And, definitely, agree that the way animal are fed definitely affects the end product. This is just an issue that needs to become more public.

<div class='NTForums_Quote'>Posted By Matthew on 04/11/2009 12:01 AM
I try to have fruits and vegetables with pretty much every single meal I have. </div>


Matt,
Thanks for both the reply and the tangent. I am familiar with the carb/weight training connection. My son and I used to work-out together and would follow that protocol, at his suggestion.

As to plants as food, I used to eat a similar diet. As I became more aware of the problems with grain in our diets, I found similar information on other common modern, dietary additions. If we didn't evolve to eat grain then by default the list includes dairy, legumes and processed food. That leaves a very narrow range of acceptable foods.

Going back before agriculture and hybridization the common plant foods would have been small, bitter, scarce and seasonal. Crab apples and woodland strawberries can be compared, but even these have been improved over time. I don't see leafy greens on the menu of Paleolithic man.

Humans could easily consume and digest plants but at what cost in terms of energy expended? If the harmful effects of 'modern' foods are eliminated, there is no need for vitamin supplements. The need for fiber is another modern myth as an afterthought to repair the damage of a highly processed diet. Humans would have found the best 'bang-for-the-buck' in terms of easily consumed fat and protein as carbs are not required for optimum health.

Our grandparents seldom has citrus fruit, bananas or any other tropical fruit. They ate seasonally, 5-6 months with no 'fresh' plant foods. Now we need fresh produce on a daily basis? If we eat a SAD, then we do need to find some source for the compromised nutrients. Again, all done in after-thought to correct the damage of a modern diet.

Perhaps my diet choices are an over-reaction to the realization that the conventional wisdom on diet and the recommendations of our government and medical community are based on faulty science. Our health has been sold to the highest bidder and corporate interests override human health interests.

Soy, heart-healthy oils, fiber, egg white omelets and such are not real food. We became intelligent on a diet rich in saturated fats from grass/algae sources. That's what we are designed to eat. That's all we really need.

Until recently I hadn't eaten a steak in 25 years. It was a struggle at times to limit my diet to animal products. Once I did, however, it's all I really wanted to eat. I now find the low-fat or lean cuts of meat, all the recommended sources, are almost unpalatable. Chicken, turkey, pork all have the consistency of tasteless cardboard. I do eat fish and shellfish regularly but beef is my mainstay.

I also don't believe the current mantra of 'eating a big breakfast to jump-start your metabolism'. I eat my first meal around 2:00, my second (last) between 6-8. I only eat when hungry and stop when full. KISS!

That said--I'm sure my diet will temper some time soon. I'll add back seasonal fruits when they become available in my area, including tomatoes. There is not a vegetable I miss yet but if I find one, I'll eat it on occasion. In the fall I may add squash, pumpkin and onions. When dining with others, I try to find the best choices available and won't impose my habits on others.

My wife tells me I've, 'slipped off to the dark side' as far as food is concerned. We'll see. It's an ongoing quest to find what works and what doesn't. I'm fairly certain this, if not the righteous path, is at least a step in the right direction.


Tom

One of the problems I have with the strict Paleo approach is that, while it sounds good on paper, some of the claims made may not hold up to scrutiny. For example, we really don't for certain what our cave-man ancestor's diets consisted of, how often they ate, or what amounts they ate. Moreover, the idea that evolution cannot take place over short periods of time is actually false. For example, nylon was introduced in the 1930s, but within a matter of only a couple decades, bacteria had evolved to be able to digest it and use it as food. Obviously, human beings are far more complex than bacteria, but we rely on bacteria for our digestion. So, just because something wasn't something eaten by ancient man doesn't necessarily mean that it is unhealthy for us to eat.

That said, I am in no way defending the modern diet of processed food and unhealthy animal protein that comprises a good deal of the modern Western diet. But the idea that we shouldn't eat very much fruits and vegetables because our caveman ancestors supposedly didn't seems a bit specious in its reasoning to me.

On the other hand, I do think Tom has a few good points about the protein issue. Our bodies were designed to digest whole proteins, not the lowfat or nonfat varieties that we have come up with these days.

actually, in OmegaRx, I was just reading that Barry Sears' research on the diet of late Paleo man showed that he ate the same ratio of carbs to protein as the zone...rather that he used that ratio in creating the zone.( surprised me....)

actually, in OmegaRx, I was just reading that Barry Sears' research on the diet of late Paleo man showed that he ate the same ratio of carbs to protein as the zone...rather that he used that ratio in creating the zone.( surprised me....)

This thread and other threads lately have really opened my eyes as to what I will and will not put in my body. Thank you all for enlightening me to make better choices!

I'm changing my organic milk to full fat and to a brand I believe is 100% grass, clover and grass/clover silage fed. I am considering making my own full fat version of organic yogurt since I'm not able to buy organic yogurt here. I stopped eating yogurt a little while ago because I couldn't find organic. The meat and eggs I buy now are organic ... if they are not organic, I won't buy them. I have started to eat beef again, but I still need to do more research on what brands are 100% grass fed ... right now I just know that it's organic. I've stopped eating cheese because I can't find organic cheese here. I buy as many organic fruits/veggies as possible. If a fruit has a rind and it isn't organic, it gets washed in a solution of water with a little bleach. I don't assume something that says organic is organic without the organic seal. I also do a search on the web to see if the company has any lawsuits pending regarding the legitimacy of it being organic. I have also learned the difference between "all natural" and "organic" ... there was a time when I thought it was the same thing.

I feel good about the changes I have made - I just wish there were more organic choices.

Are you saying that I shouldn't cook with the Zone Olive Oil?

Olive oil (any olive oil, regardless of who makes it) has a very low smoke point. Once an oil is heated to the smoke point it changes the chemical structure of the fats and turns what would otherwise be healthy fats into unhealthy fats.

Matthew (with the olive oil question),

You should not heat any extra virgin oil, including Zone Labs olive oil.

Hmmm, lots of debate on the heating of olive oil. We have discussed this before, and as I recall, there are probably just as many sources that say that heating EVOO is safe, as there are sources that warn against it.

I believe that most of our cooking is done at temps that are lower than the smoking point, unless one is deep frying. Especially if doing a quick saute, this should not cause a problem.