cranberrycat
 Senior Member Posts:9137

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| 07 Apr 2009 11:07 AM |
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I think Sue missed my previous post, so I just wanted to post a reply, to bring back to the top of the list. Some additional information, I had sent a Zone Chat request to see if anyone from the Zone could comment on the elevation of insulin after an intense workout. Well, they had actually commented that this insulin elevation INHIBITS muscle synthesis! I had emailed back asking if they could give me some references to support that. Just got an email back, and the only suggestion was to do my own search on Pubmed. I would have thought that Zone Labs could give me the references to support their statements. Sorry if it sounds like I am bashing Zone Labs, but I am a bit frustrated at the moment! Going back to my previous post, NO PRESSURE Sue! I am interested in your opinion on the subject. Matthew and I already know where we stand on the subject! |
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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Matthew
 Basic Member Posts:256
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| 07 Apr 2009 11:21 AM |
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"Matthew and I already know where we stand on the subject!" Really? I thought my subtle writing style and passive nature hid my views. LOL! You should ask the Zone labs about the following study: http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articl...abolic.htmInsulin and Muscle Growth Human Studies Finally Show Insulin to Be Extremely Anabolic in Human Muscle Tissue -- In Vivo
by Hypertrophy
Extreme hyperinsulinemia unmasks insulin's effect to stimulate protein synthesis in human forearm.
Researchers: Teresa A. Hillier, David A. Fryburg, Linda A. Jahn, and Eugene J. Barrett Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, and General Clinical Research Center, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908
Source: Am. J. Physiol. 274 (Endocrinol. Metab. 37): E1067-E1074, 1998
Summary: In 14 healthy volunteers, forearm insulin concentrations were raised 1,000-fold above basal levels while maintaining euglycemia for 4 h. Amino acids (AA) were given to either maintain basal arterial (n = 4) or venous plasma (n = 6) AA or increment arterial plasma AA by 100% (n = 4) in the forearm. Measurements were taken of forearm muscle glucose, lactate, oxygen, phenylalanine balance, and [3H]phenylalanine kinetics at baseline and at 4 h of insulin infusion.
Results: Extreme hyperinsulinemia strongly reversed postabsorptive (fasting) muscle's phenylalanine balance from a net release to an uptake. This marked anabolic effect resulted from a dramatic stimulation of protein synthesis and a modest decline in protein degradation. Furthermore, this effect was seen even when basal arterial or venous aminoacidemia was maintained. With marked hyperinsulinemia, protein synthesis increased further when plasma AA concentrations were also increased. Forearm blood flow rose at least two fold with the combined insulin and AA infusion, and this was consistent in all groups. These results demonstrate an effect of high concentrations of insulin to markedly stimulate muscle protein synthesis in vivo in adults, even when AA concentrations are not increased. This is similar to prior in vitro reports but distinct from physiological hyperinsulinemia in vivo where stimulation of protein synthesis does not occur. Therefore, the current findings suggest that the differences in insulin concentrations used in prior studies may largely explain the previously reported discrepancy between insulin action on protein synthesis in adult muscle in vivo vs. in vitro.
Discussion: Insulin is an obvious topic of interest among the largest physiques in the culture of bodybuilding. In my search for definitive answers as to the anabolic potential of exogenous insulin administration, I have been sorely disappointed in the lack of human studies showing the anabolic properties of insulin in adults. Many studies show insulin to slow protein break down but data showing insulin to be truly anabolic in muscle tissue was virtually non-existent. Despite this lack of clinical evidence, insulin use still pervades in bodybuilding.
There are a few things that need to be addressed when considering this study. First, the amount of insulin used in this study is extemely high. The quantities of insulin used are far above what should ever be attempted by bodybuilders. Second, the anabolic properties of extreme hyperinsulinemia are likely do to insulin's interaction with IGF-1 receptors, not traditional insulin receptors. Finally, the anabolic effects of extreme hyperinsulinemia were only seen with concomitant amino acid infusion. This means that if there are no amino acids floating around, you will not build muscle no matter how much insulin you are using.
The high levels of insulin used in this study are not practical for bodybuilders to consider using. The subjects blood glucose was kept constant through artificial means to prevent hypoglycemic coma. In other words kiddies, DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME! Besides the danger involved with raising insulin levels 1,000 times above normal without a controlled infusion of glucose, it isn't really necessary if you want to get an anabolic response. Think of what was done in this study like flooding the basement in order to water the lawn. The anabolic effects produced in this study were most likely due to excess insulin binding to hybrid IGF-1 receptors. The same effect through can be achieved without all the insulin by simply adding a little IGF-1. After all, you should always use the right tool for the job. I will admit that further research is necessary to further support my (and the authors of this study) assertions that the anabolic effect of insulin seen in this study was caused by interaction of insulin with IGF-1 receptors. Nevertheless, it would be nice to see bodybuilders use less insulin and perhaps begin to incorporate a mixture of compounds that more closely resembles the complex interaction of hormones which exist naturally in the body. |
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cranberrycat
 Senior Member Posts:9137

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| 07 Apr 2009 12:09 PM |
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LOL! Quite interesting. Thanks for the article. I think that my "search" (if I ever get around to doing it) will be like fishing for a needle in a haystack. |
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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Matthew
 Basic Member Posts:256
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| 07 Apr 2009 12:21 PM |
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Some more studies to ask Zone labs about: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7860765" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7860765J Clin Invest. 1995 Feb;95(2):811-9.Click here to read Click here to read Links Physiologic hyperinsulinemia stimulates protein synthesis and enhances transport of selected amino acids in human skeletal muscle. Biolo G, Declan Fleming RY, Wolfe RR.
Department of Internal Medicine, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston.
We have investigated the mechanisms of the anabolic effect of insulin on muscle protein metabolism in healthy volunteers, using stable isotopic tracers of amino acids. Calculations of muscle protein synthesis, breakdown, and amino acid transport were based on data obtained with the leg arteriovenous catheterization and muscle biopsy. Insulin was infused (0.15 mU/min per 100 ml leg) into the femoral artery to increase femoral venous insulin concentration (from 10 +/- 2 to 77 +/- 9 microU/ml) with minimal systemic perturbations. Tissue concentrations of free essential amino acids decreased (P < 0.05) after insulin. The fractional synthesis rate of muscle protein (precursor-product approach) increased (P < 0.01) after insulin from 0.0401 +/- 0.0072 to 0.0677 +/- 0.0101%/h. Consistent with this observation, rates of utilization for protein synthesis of intracellular phenylalanine and lysine (arteriovenous balance approach) also increased from 40 +/- 8 to 59 +/- 8 (P < 0.05) and from 219 +/- 21 to 298 +/- 37 (P < 0.08) nmol/min per 100 ml leg, respectively. Release from protein breakdown of phenylalanine, leucine, and lysine was not significantly modified by insulin. Local hyperinsulinemia increased (P < 0.05) the rates of inward transport of leucine, lysine, and alanine, from 164 +/- 22 to 200 +/- 25, from 126 +/- 11 to 221 +/- 30, and from 403 +/- 64 to 595 +/- 106 nmol/min per 100 ml leg, respectively. Transport of phenylalanine did not change significantly. We conclude that insulin promoted muscle anabolism, primarily by stimulating protein synthesis independently of any effect on transmembrane transport. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15319361Impaired anabolic response of muscle protein synthesis is associated with S6K1 dysregulation in elderly humans. Guillet C, Prod'homme M, Balage M, Gachon P, Giraudet C, Morin L, Grizard J, Boirie Y.
Unité du Métabolisme Protéino-Energétique, UMR Université d'Auvergne/INRA, CRNH, Centre Hospitalier Universitaire, Clermont-Ferrand, France.
Age-related loss of muscle protein may involve a decreased response to anabolic factors of muscle protein synthesis through dysregulation of translation factors. To verify this hypothesis, we simultaneously investigated muscle protein synthesis and expression of some factors implicated in insulin signal transduction during hyperinsulinemia and hyperaminoacidemia in 6 young (25+/-1 year; mean+/-sem) and 8 elderly subjects (72+/-2 year). Incorporation of L-[1-13C] leucine in muscle proteins (fractional synthesis rate, FSR) was measured in vastus lateralis, before and during a euglycemic hyperinsulinemic hyperaminoacidemic clamp, together with Western blot analysis of protein kinase B (PKB), mTOR, 4E-BP1, and S6K1 phosphorylation. In basal state, muscle protein FSR was reduced in elderly in comparison with young subjects (0.061+/-0.004% per hour) vs 0.082+/-0.010% per hour, elderly vs. young, P<0.05). During clamp, muscle protein FSR was stimulated in young (0.119+/-0.006% per hour; P<0.05), but this response was significantly lower in elderly subjects (0.084+/-0.005% per hour, P<0.05 vs young subjects). Phosphorylation of PKB, mTOR, and 4E-BP1 were similarly increased by insulin and amino acid in both groups, except for S6K1 phosphorylation, which was not stimulated in elderly subjects. In conclusion, 1) response of muscle protein synthesis to insulin and amino acid is impaired in elderly humans; 2) a defect in S6K1 pathway activation may be responsible for this alteration. This modification is a mechanistic basis of sarcopenia development during aging. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15185208 J Pediatr Surg. 2004 Jun;39(6):839-44; discussion 839-44.Click here to read Links Intravenous insulin decreases protein breakdown in infants on extracorporeal membrane oxygenation. Agus MS, Javid PJ, Ryan DP, Jaksic T.
Department of Medicine, Children's Hospital Boston, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA 02115, USA.
BACKGROUND/PURPOSE: Infants requiring extracorporeal membrane oxygenation (ECMO) have the highest rates of protein catabolism ever reported. Recent investigations have found that such extreme protein breakdown is refractory to conventional nutritional management. In this pilot study, the authors sought to use the anabolic hormone insulin to reduce the profound protein degradation in this cohort. METHODS: Four parenterally fed infants on ECMO were enrolled in a prospective, randomized, crossover trial. Subjects were administered an insulin infusion using a 4-hour hyperinsulinemic euglycemic clamp followed by a control saline infusion on consecutive days in random order. Whole-body protein flux and breakdown were quantified using a primed continuous infusion of the stable isotope L-[1-13C]leucine. Statistical analyses were performed using paired t tests. RESULTS: Serum insulin levels were increased 15-fold during the insulin clamp compared with the saline control (407 +/- 103 v 26 +/- 12 microU/mL; P <.05). During the insulin infusion, infants had decreased rates of total leucine flux (214 +/- 25 v 298 +/- 38 micromol/kg/h; P <.05) and leucine flux derived from protein breakdown (156 +/- 40 v 227 +/- 54 micromol/kg/h; P <.05) when compared with saline control. Overall, insulin administration produced a 32% reduction in protein breakdown (P <.05). CONCLUSIONS: In this pilot study, the anabolic hormone insulin markedly reduced protein breakdown in critically ill infants on ECMO. Because elevated protein breakdown correlates with mortality and morbidity, the administration of intravenous insulin may ultimately have broad applicability to the metabolic management of critically ill infants. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14665444 Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Apr;286(4):E529-34. Epub 2003 Dec 9.Click here to read Links Extremity hyperinsulinemia stimulates muscle protein synthesis in severely injured patients. Gore DC, Wolf SE, Sanford AP, Herndon DN, Wolfe RR.
The University of Texas Medical Branch, 301 University Boulevard, Galveston, TX 77555-1172, USA. dcgore@utmb.edu
Insulin has a well-recognized anabolic effect on muscle protein, yet critically ill, severely injured patients are often considered "resistant" to the action of insulin. The purpose of this study was to assess the in vivo effects of hyperinsulinemia on human skeletal muscle in severely injured patients. To accomplish this goal, 14 patients with burns encompassing >40% of their body surface area underwent metabolic evaluation utilizing isotopic dilution of phenylalanine, femoral artery and vein blood sampling, and sequential muscle biopsies of the leg. After baseline metabolic measurements were taken, insulin was infused into the femoral artery at 0.45 mIU.min(-1).100 ml leg volume(-1) to create a local hyperinsulinemia but with minimal systemic perturbations. Insulin administration increased femoral venous concentration of insulin (P < 0.01) but with only a 4% (insignificant) decrease in the arterial glucose concentration and a 7% (insignificant) decrease in the arterial concentration of phenylalanine. Extremity hyperinsulinemia significantly increased leg blood flow (P < 0.05) and the rate of muscle protein synthesis (P < 0.05). Neither the rate of muscle protein breakdown nor the rate of transmembrane transport of phenylalanine was significantly altered with extremity hyperinsulinemia. In conclusion, this study demonstrates that insulin directly stimulates muscle protein synthesis in severely injured patients. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8772730 Diabetes. 1996 Sep;45(9):1245-52.Links Contribution of amino acids and insulin to protein anabolism during meal absorption. Volpi E, Lucidi P, Cruciani G, Monacchia F, Reboldi G, Brunetti P, Bolli GB, De Feo P.
Department of Internal Medicine, Endocrine and Metabolic Sciences, University of Perugia, Italy.
The contribution of dietary amino acids and endogenous hyperinsulinemia to prandial protein anabolism still has not been established. To this end, leucine estimates ([1-14C]leucine infusion, plasma alpha-ketoisocaproic acid [KIC] specific activity [SA] as precursor pool SA) of whole-body protein kinetics and fractional secretory rates (FSRs) of albumin, fibrinogen, antithrombin III, and immunoglobulin G (IgG) were measured in three groups of healthy volunteers during intragastric infusion of water (controls, n = 5), liquid glucose-lipid-amino acid (AA) meal (meal+AA, n = 7), or isocaloric glucose-lipid meal (meal-AA, n = 7) that induced the same insulin response as the meal+AA. The results of this study demonstrate that 1) by increasing (P < 0.01) whole-body protein synthesis and decreasing (P < 0.01) proteolysis, dietary amino acids account for the largest part (approximately 90%) of postprandial protein anabolism; 2) the ingestion of an isocaloric meal deprived of amino acids exerts a modest protein anabolic effect (10% of postprandial protein anabolism) by decreasing amino acid oxidation and increasing (P < 0.01) albumin synthesis; 3) albumin FSR is increased (approximately 20%) by postprandial hyperinsulinemia (meal-AA) and additionally increased (approximately 50%) by amino acid intake (meal+AA); 4) IgG FSR is stimulated (approximately 40%) by amino acids, not by insulin; and 5) fibrinogen and antithrombin III FSR are not regulated by amino acids or insulin. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7860765" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7860765J Clin Invest. 1995 Feb;95(2):811-9.Click here to read Click here to read Links Physiologic hyperinsulinemia stimulates protein synthesis and enhances transport of selected amino acids in human skeletal muscle. Biolo G, Declan Fleming RY, Wolfe RR.
Department of Internal Medicine, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston.
We have investigated the mechanisms of the anabolic effect of insulin on muscle protein metabolism in healthy volunteers, using stable isotopic tracers of amino acids. Calculations of muscle protein synthesis, breakdown, and amino acid transport were based on data obtained with the leg arteriovenous catheterization and muscle biopsy. Insulin was infused (0.15 mU/min per 100 ml leg) into the femoral artery to increase femoral venous insulin concentration (from 10 +/- 2 to 77 +/- 9 microU/ml) with minimal systemic perturbations. Tissue concentrations of free essential amino acids decreased (P < 0.05) after insulin. The fractional synthesis rate of muscle protein (precursor-product approach) increased (P < 0.01) after insulin from 0.0401 +/- 0.0072 to 0.0677 +/- 0.0101%/h. Consistent with this observation, rates of utilization for protein synthesis of intracellular phenylalanine and lysine (arteriovenous balance approach) also increased from 40 +/- 8 to 59 +/- 8 (P < 0.05) and from 219 +/- 21 to 298 +/- 37 (P < 0.08) nmol/min per 100 ml leg, respectively. Release from protein breakdown of phenylalanine, leucine, and lysine was not significantly modified by insulin. Local hyperinsulinemia increased (P < 0.05) the rates of inward transport of leucine, lysine, and alanine, from 164 +/- 22 to 200 +/- 25, from 126 +/- 11 to 221 +/- 30, and from 403 +/- 64 to 595 +/- 106 nmol/min per 100 ml leg, respectively. Transport of phenylalanine did not change significantly. We conclude that insulin promoted muscle anabolism, primarily by stimulating protein synthesis independently of any effect on transmembrane transport. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8304920Baillieres Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1993 Oct;7(4):989-1005.Links Insulin action on protein metabolism. Biolo G, Wolfe RR.
Shriners Burns Institute, Galveston, TX 77550.
On the basis of the preceding observations, the following sequence of events can be postulated during insulin deficiency or excess. The main feature of insulin deficiency is the disruption of protein balance in muscle that rapidly leads to emaciation and wasting. Muscle protein degradation is greatly enhanced while increased amino acid availability maintains protein synthesis. In splanchnic tissues, both degradation and synthesis are increased but with an altered pattern, so that the levels of some proteins are increased (e.g. proteins of the acute-phase response), while those of others are decreased (e.g. albumin). As a result, intracellular protein content in liver is maintained but secretion of plasma proteins is abnormal. In healthy subjects, an acute increase in insulin concentration, as occurs after a meal, leads to a rapid suppression of protein breakdown in the splanchnic area. If hyperinsulinaemia is not supported by an exogenous amino acid supply, as might occur during a protein-free meal or experimentally during euglycaemic hyperinsulinaemic clamping, the plasma as well as muscle free amino acid concentration drops, owing to reduced splanchnic release. With reduced amino acid availability, insulin is not anabolic in muscle. If amino acid concentrations are maintained at normal or high levels, e.g. following a mixed meal, a net protein deposition in muscle may occur, primarily because of a stimulation of synthesis and possibly owing to inhibition of breakdown. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15562823 Novartis Found Symp. 2004;262:56-77; discussion 77-83, 265-8.Links IGF-1 and insulin as growth hormones. Laron Z.
Endocrinology and Diabetes Research Unit, Schneider Children's Medical Center, WHO Collaborating Center for the Study of Diabetes in Youth, Petah Tikva and Sackler School of Medicine, Tel Aviv University, Tel Aviv, Israel.
IGF-1 generated in the liver is the anabolic effector and linear growth promoting hormone of the pituitary growth hormone (GH). This is evidenced by dwarfism in states of congenital IGF-1 deficiency, Igf1 gene mutation/deletions or knockouts, and in Laron syndrome (LS), due to GH receptor gene mutations/deletions or IGF-1 receptor blocking. In a positive way, daily IGF-1 administration to stunted patients with LS or hGH gene deletion accelerates linear growth velocity. IGF-1 acts on the proliferative cells of the epiphyseal cartilage. IGF-1 also induces organ and tissue growth; its absence causing organomicria. Insulin shares a common ancestry with IGF-1 and with 45% amino acid homology, as well as very close relationships in the structure of its receptors and post-receptor cascade, also acts as a growth hormone. It has protein anabolic activity and stimulates IGF-1 synthesis. Pancreas agenesis causes short babies, and obese children with hyperinsulinism, with or without pituitary GH, have an accelerated growth rate and skeletal maturation; so do babies with macrosomia. Whether the insulin growth effect is direct, or mediated by IGF-1 or leptin is controversial. |
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cranberrycat
 Senior Member Posts:9137

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| 07 Apr 2009 02:05 PM |
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I get it! Can this all be applied to the average Joe, or is it really more important for those power athletes that we talked about? Most of us who are not athletes are not going to run out of ATP and can run throughout the day on fat metabolism (provided that we are following the Zone Diet). But, for you and others, sounds as if there is a point at which you NEED to eat carb heavy high GL snacks, because you are doing things to your body that the average Joe would not be doing. So, MY zone may not work for you, just like YOUR Zone would not work for me. Now, I know that Sears has said that the Zone is not one diet for everyone. The Zone changes, from one person to the next. I guess I just hadn't really considered how MUCH it changes for an athlete. |
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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Matthew
 Basic Member Posts:256
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| 07 Apr 2009 02:37 PM |
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Once again, I think you hit the nail on the head. There is a reason I posted this information in the "athletic performance" forum and not other forums. There is a reason I keep stressing that it is for people who are already fairly lean and train quite intensely. I don't think this is something that should be used for average Joe or Jane fitness. For Joe or Jane fitness who wants to shed a few pounds and stay in shape, I think that a small Zone meal following training is more than sufficient and beneficial because it meets their needs, or as you put it, it is in their "Zone". For lean athletes training intensely and seeking peak performance, due to the special circumstances under which they operate, their "Zone" is different than Joe or Jane fitness (at least during post training periods). Most people in the gym looking to burn a few calories, lose a little fat, or just get healthy, don't train like athletes do, so they shouldn't think that they should eat like an athlete needs to for peak performance following training. I have tried to repeat that caveat frequently (and not repeated the advice in other forums on this site) for just for the reason you mention. CC, I gotta say I am impressed. The stuff I am talking about here isn't exactly easy material and it took me years to struggle with and learn a lot of the stuff I have (and I am still learning new stuff every day and continuing to struggle with things I don't yet understand and sometimes having to go back and unlearn things I thought I knew because it turned out I was wrong). You seem to have picked it up in about a week! |
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cranberrycat
 Senior Member Posts:9137

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| 07 Apr 2009 03:26 PM |
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Thanks for the compliment! It is a bit out of my realm, but I can understand some of it. I am a nurse, so some of it is just going back to the ol' biochem and physiology classes. I recall, when you first posted in the forums, that it seemed as if you were looking for someone to challenge your thoughts. I can't recall exactly how you said it, but that was my impression. I don't have a clue as to why I thought I could do that, but here we are! Glad to have stepped in, I have learned quite a bit! Will see if I ever get a decent response from my emails. |
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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Matthew
 Basic Member Posts:256
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| 07 Apr 2009 03:33 PM |
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Yeah, I like to challenge my own views and to challenge the ideas of others (even if I agree with them) to see if they can hold up.
One of the things I have never been able to really stomach is blind devotion to something because some authority figure said it. They may be right, but if they are right, then challenging those views shouldn't be a threat. And if they are threatened by it, it might prove how little they trust that their ideas can hold up to scrutiny.
I try to keep an open mind about things. This doesn't mean that I don't come to conclusion or develop theories or beliefs, but I am not so wed to those ideas that I am unwilling to reassess whether they are right or not when presented with new information.
Maybe the reason this stuff comes easily to you is because of your biochem background. I don't have a science background so I have had to try and learn it on the fly as I go along over the years, by trying to understand the things I am reading and always trying to ask "why?" |
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cranberrycat
 Senior Member Posts:9137

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| 07 Apr 2009 03:53 PM |
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Well, yeah! That is one of the things that I am frustrated about, and struggling with. Just because Sears said so isn't always good enough for me. I would have really liked to have seen what Zone Labs would come up with for their references. Too bad that they didn't respond that way, but it is another example of following this stuff blindly, just doing it because he said so, no questions. |
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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Karen
 Advanced Member Posts:868

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| 07 Apr 2009 04:50 PM |
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CC and Matt, you two have both blown my mind away! Yup, it's gone! LOL! Very interesting reads! I love a civil debate ... it's amazing how much is learned by all. Thank you! BTW, I still don't understand it all, but I did learn new things! I am in total agreeance with both of you ... question things - don't just take someone's word for it. After all, no one knows it all. Best of all, it gets people's brain churning; and before you know it, something new is being discovered and/or improved! |
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Happy Zoning! Karen |
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Jeffrey
 Basic Member Posts:241

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| 07 Apr 2009 11:00 PM |
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Matthew, I'm getting ready to try your suggestions, but I have a question... how many grams of BCAA should I ingest in that post workout meal? I'm thinking my post workout meal will look something like this... 1. 8 ozs of 1% milk, mixed with about 14g of ON protein (3g BCAAs) and probably about 3g of glutamine 2. A medium banana I'll eat a Zone meal about 60-90 minutes afterwards and go to bed - so I can get 8 hours of sleep. Does that sound about right? |
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Matthew
 Basic Member Posts:256
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| 07 Apr 2009 11:27 PM |
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Jeffrey:
There are some studies out there that have shown beneficial effects with mega-dosing of BCAAs and there are studies showing beneficial effects with substantially smaller doses.
I would say start on the conservative side, with something on the order of 4-5 grams of BCAA very soon before training and 4-5 grams with your post w/o meal.
To be honest, no one really knows right now what the ideal ration of grams of BCAAs/kg should be. That said, I like to err on the side of conservatism and that that 8-10g of BCAAs, in addition to the high GI carbs + protein you are taking should be sufficient. Most supplement companies try to tell you to take more than you need because that means you will order from them more frequently.
It looks like at 8 oz of milk + banana + 14g of protein + BCAAs you will be in the right range for post exercise nutrition.
I would say "good luck" but I am confident that you won't need luck to see results.
Out of curiosity, how long do you plan to give this protocol a trial run? I would suggest that you give it at least a month. |
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Jeffrey
 Basic Member Posts:241

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| 08 Apr 2009 08:11 AM |
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Matthew, I plan on giving it a try for at least a month. If it works, I expect a lot longer. Since my protein powder doesn't supply enough BCAAs, what is a reasonably priced BCAA supplement? Is there anything I can pick up at a Wal-Mart or Costco, for example? TIA. |
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Matthew
 Basic Member Posts:256
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| 08 Apr 2009 08:27 AM |
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You should be able to get them a place like GNC or any other major supplement store.
Since I know you follow GVT, you probably are familiar with Charles Poliquin since he popularized this form of training. He often writes articles for the t-nation website. They also sell supplements (the supplement end of the business is called "biotest"). They sell a pretty decent and reasonably priced BCAAs. |
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Francisco
 New Member Posts:10
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| 08 Apr 2009 05:32 PM |
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One question very different, what you think about this article,it´s about hyperinsulinaemia of milk but milk have a IG of 30, I don´t understand??? Milk - The promoter of chronic Western diseases. Department of Dermatology, Environmental Medicine and Health Theory, University of Osnabrück, Sedanstrasse 115, D-49090 Osnabrück, Germany. Common chronic diseases of Western societies, such as coronary heart disease, diabetes mellitus, cancer, hypertension, obesity, dementia, and allergic diseases are significantly influenced by dietary habits. Cow's milk and dairy products are nutritional staples in most Western societies. Milk and dairy product consumption is recommended by most nutritional societies because of their beneficial effects for calcium uptake and bone mineralization and as a source of valuable protein. However, the adverse long-term effects of milk and milk protein consumption on human health have been neglected. A hypothesis is presented, showing for the first time that milk protein consumption is an essential adverse environmental factor promoting most chronic diseases of Western societies. Milk protein consumption induces postprandial hyperinsulinaemia and shifts the growth hormone/insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) axis to permanently increased IGF-1 serum levels. Insulin/IGF-1 signalling is involved in the regulation of fetal growth, T-cell maturation in the thymus, linear growth, pathogenesis of acne, atherosclerosis, diabetes mellitus, obesity, cancer and neurodegenerative diseases, thus affecting most chronic diseases of Western societies. Of special concern is the possibility that milk intake during pregnancy adversely affects the early fetal programming of the IGF-1 axis which will influence health risks later in life. An accumulated body of evidence for the adverse effects of cow's milk consumption from fetal life to childhood, adolescence, adulthood and senescence will be provided which strengthens the presented hypothesis. PMID: 19232475 [PubMed - in process] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...$=activityCranberrycat : what coincidence!!, I´am male nurse too!! |
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cranberrycat
 Senior Member Posts:9137

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| 08 Apr 2009 06:45 PM |
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OH, nice to know! What kind of nursing do you practice? I am a nurse case manager at a hospital, so I kind of wear a lot of different hats at our small facility. Regarding your milk article, I wonder if they studied whole milk, or a defatted milk? |
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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Francisco
 New Member Posts:10
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| 09 Apr 2009 06:03 AM |
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I don´t know if it´s whole milk, when i will go the next week to the hospital i´m going to tray to read the whole article.
I was lucky, actually I´m working in the one of the best hospital´s pharmacy in Spain, who has the ISO certificate. We do endovenous drugs and cytostatics. But my work is because a nurse is ill, when she will ok my work will be terminated. Here there are very few work. |
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cranberrycat
 Senior Member Posts:9137

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| 09 Apr 2009 06:06 AM |
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So, your job is temporary at the moment? We are screaming for nurses in the states. As the economy is down, though, not as many hospitals are hiring, but I think that the reality is that there is a high need for nurses here. |
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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Matthew
 Basic Member Posts:256
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| 09 Apr 2009 12:05 PM |
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Francisco:
I would be willing to bet anything that the milk used in that study was pasteurized and homogenized milk (that probably came from hormone-injected grain fed beef housed in pens) rather than raw organic milk from grass-fed cows living on farms. I have been very anti-store-bought milk for a very long time now and refuse to drink milk from the store. On the other hand, because I live in California, I can still buy raw milk at farmer's markets (although it is significantly harder due to some new legislation that was passed last year). The ONLY milk I will drink is raw milk. Raw milk, from my research, is a health food. Store-bought homogenized milk is basically poison, in my opinion.
From an anecdotal point of view, I used to have a good deal of gastrointestinal distress from drinking milk until I switched to raw milk several years ago. I also had allergic reactions to store-bought milk, but none to raw milk. Dr. Sears' colleague, Dr. Jerry Bowden, concurs with these conclusions about raw milk being a health food and store-bought milk basically being total unhealthy crap. I was pleased to see that my independent research into the subject matter was confirmed later.
To be clear, there is milk and there is milk. Heat pasteurization turns a healthy food into an unhealthy food. Then when you factor in all the hormones that are pumped into cows that produce milk for stores, it becomes even more unhealthy. To me, the difference between raw milk and store-bought milk is like the difference between organic grass fed beef and the grain-fed beef that is pumped full of hormones. Grass fed beef is a health food. Hormone injected grain fed beef has a Omega 3:6 ration of around 1:20 whereas grass fed beef has a a ratio of around 6:1!! Grass-fed hormone free beef is very low in saturated fats too, is much higher in various nutrients than grain-fed beef, has much higher levels of other healthy fats (like CLA). Moreover, even the saturated fat in grass-fed beef is healthier for you because it is not full of hormones (this is where a lot of the hormones gets stored that get injected into grain-fed beef).
Basically, if you eat a healthy animal, one that is being fed the food it would eat in nature, don't put the animal in tiny disease infested pens, and don't load it up with every hormone known to man, you have a health food. To me, comparing store-bought milk and hormone injected grain fed beef (which is also where store bough milk comes from) with raw milk and grass-fed organic beef is like comparing transfats with Omega-3 fats and Monosaturated fats. Yes, they are all fats, but one is very unhealthy for you and the other two are very healthy.
This is true of much of our food, including eggs, chicken & fish. Eat food that comes from healthy animals and you will have healthy food. Eat food that comes from unhealthy animals and you will have unhealthy food. You could eat red meat, milk and eggs every day and be incredibly healthy if it is organic and comes from healthy animals being fed what they eat in nature and not penned up in tiny disease infested cages. Or you could eat red meat, milk and eggs every day and be really unhealthy because you are eating an unhealthy animal.
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Karen
 Advanced Member Posts:868

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| 11 Apr 2009 11:43 PM |
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Hmmm ... I love milk and thought I was drinking healthy milk, but I buy it in the grocery store. I buy Horizon Organic DHA Omega-3 2% milk, which I have to say I'm considering going to whole milk. This is the info about Horizon Organic milk: It's produced without antibiotics, growth hormones and pesticides. Our cows eat only organic feed and have access to clean water, fresh air, organic pasture and exercise. All of our milk is pasteurized and homogenized to ensure freshness, and fortified with vitamin D. We've added vitamin A to our Fat-Free, Reduced Fat, Lowfat and Lactose-Free Milk, as well as all Milk Plus DHA Omega-3 products. Milk Plus DHA Omega-3 is enhanced with an Omega-3 fatty acid that helps support heart, brain and eye health. I don't have access to milk other than the grocery store and I can only find pasteurized. Anyway, it's the best milk I can find and will continue to drink it ... I just need to decide if I want to go to whole milk. |
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Happy Zoning! Karen |
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Francisco
 New Member Posts:10
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| 12 Apr 2009 05:59 AM |
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Hello see that I have found in michael montignac´s web:
Question 40
Why is it recommended that we do not eat large amounts of fresh milk products even if they have low GIs (30/35)?
Answer
The GI for most carbs basically reflects its impact on our blood sugar levels. Accordingly, low GI carbs will trigger low insulin responses. Most foodstuffs have an insulinic index (II) proportional to their GI. There is, however, an exception: fresh milk products (yoghurt and Quark or curd cheese) which have a low GI but a high II. These should be eaten in small portions since, even if they have low GIs, they contain whey which triggers critical insulin responses. The ideal then is not to eat more than the equivalent of 2 yoghurts a day. The best thing is to eat cheese without whey, cheese which has been cured (hard cheese). Low-fat milk products, on the other hand, should be eaten with meals which are basically carbohydrates (including breakfast.) Whole-milk foods and cured cheese should be eaten with protein-lipid diets.
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Francisco
 New Member Posts:10
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| 12 Apr 2009 06:05 AM |
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Yes cranberrycat, my job is temporary now. It´s dificul to have a permanet job here. |
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Jeffrey
 Basic Member Posts:241

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| 23 Apr 2009 12:05 AM |
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Matt, I started back up with my GVT and I'm using your suggestions for a post workout meal. I'm sure it will be a month or so before I can comment too much, but I haven't noticed any adverse affects the first two workouts. I do have one question, though. I think your recommendation was for 1 banana and 8 ozs of organic 1% milk. That's not much protein. Is that enough for a post workout meal? In my case, I'm adding an addition 14g of ON low fat protein powder, so I think that turns out to be 28. Not much, but more than 14g. Come to think of it, I think you recommended 5g of BCAAs, so adding that to the 14g of protein makes it almost 20g. Anyway, I'd appreciate your comments on quantity of protein. |
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cranberrycat
 Senior Member Posts:9137

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| 23 Apr 2009 08:50 AM |
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Karen, I saw a milk at WF the other day that was organic, no growth hormones, etc, and I believe it was pasteurized but not homogenized. However, I think it was about $3.99 for a 1/2 gallon. A bit out of my price range, and WF is not a convenient store to get to for me. If I am lucky, I get there once per month. |
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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Matthew
 Basic Member Posts:256
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| 23 Apr 2009 11:07 AM |
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Jeffrey: You aren't eating enough high GI carbs. You are getting enough protein, however. A medium-sized banana is only about 100 calories, with most of it being carbs (about 22-23 grams). An 8 oz. cup of skim milk is only about 90 calories with only about 12 grams of carbs and 9 grams of protein. With the protein powder, that means you are getting a total of about 35g of carbs and 24g of protein. You need more high GI carbs. The ratio is supposed be between 2:1 and 4:1. You are supposed to get approximately 0.8 g/kg of bodyweight of carbs. For you, that means getting approximately 60g of carbs immediately post training and between 15-30g of protein. You are falling short by about 25g on your high GI carbs. You could eat a second medium sized banana if you want, or you could use chocolate milk which should increase the sugars by about 25 grams or so. Also, are you cutting back on your other calories throughout the day (even subconsciously), or are you adding the post workout drink in to your normal Zone diet? I recall you mentioning that your normal daily intake was around 1,900-2,000 calories. You should be adding the post workout drink to that 1,900-2,000 calories not reducing those calories. This means, your total calories should be around 2,250-2,350 per day. |
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