Hi, I´m a new user, I´m from Spain so sorry for my English.

I am bodybuilder since 4 year. Now I´m taking 5 grams of l-glutamine to avoid anti catabolism three times per day. Glutamine should be taken with empty stomach, to avoid the competition with other amino acids. I take it when i get up, post workout and before go to sleep. BCCA´s only 2 times per day, pre and post workout.


My question is if Should I consider the L-glutamine and BCCA´s as protein?? I add the juice of one orange and a teaspoon of olive virgin oil to the l-glutamine. Should i consider it a block or it´s very few only 5 grams of protein per block?? To BCCA´s I can add Zone proteins to complete 2 blocks but L-glutamine can´t add anything.

Sorry for my English, i´m learning a lot with this forum, many thanks.

No, I wouldn't include the BCAA's + L-glutamine as part of your daily protein count.

OK, but are you sure that this 25 grams of amino acid doesn´t affect to the ratio carbohydrates/proteins??

I have written extensively about this recently, and I have got some push back from many people here who are stronger adherents to the Zone diet than I am.

I don't think that a serious athlete should be using the Zone diet as his pre/post-workout guideline, particularly a strength/power athlete who has trained intensely and is interested in gaining (or preserving) substantial muscle.

There is a substantial body of empirical and scientific evidence that consuming a high GI carb meal with protein and BCAAs (with a 4:1 ratio of carbs:protein) during and immediately post intense workout is optimal. Even Dr. Sears' colleague, Dr. Johnny Bowden (who is also a "low carb" proponent) appears to be suggesting this. In your "meals" immediately before, during, and immediately after working out (as in within 15 minutes before and 15 minutes after) you WANT a large number of high GI carbs coupled with protein (and very little fat) and BCAAs for two reasons: (1) your muscles are seriously depleted of glycogen and other nutrients and you want to feed them with the nutrients they are craving during the time they are most receptive to using them; (2) you actually want to spike Insulin because that both speeds the rate at which your muscles receive all those nutrients during that short window of opportunity and the fact that Insulin is highly anabolic when spiked at the right time (i.e., immediately post workout).

I should point out that Dr. Sears apparently does not agree with these recommendations (from what I can tell), but there is enough evidence out there that I think that the workout period nutrition (for serious athletes working very hard) should be different than what you do the other 22 hours of the day.

I should also note that these recommendations are really for lean athletes who aren't focused on trying to drop body fat, and these recommendations are really for intense workouts and not just for hopping on a treadmill of 1/2 hour of light cardio.

Yes I have read it in your other post, but what about GH, if your levels of insulin are very high the secretion of GH decreases, and it´s the most powerful anabolic hormone.

I think if you take for example Zone proteins and a medium carbohydrates such as orange juice after working out the muscles are going to have all nutrients quickly. it is really necessary obtain it with a very high GI carb in á very few minutes?

The increase in insulin may well decrease GH levels temporarily (from my understanding), but it becomes a trade-off at that point as to what is more important during that brief post workout window of opportunity. My understanding of the research is that yes, it is that important to get the nutrients that quickly and that the trade-off balances towards high GI levels immediately post-exercise (as in the first 15-30 minutes). The window is brief and you should take full advantage of it while you can.

And from what I have read, GH is not the most powerful anabolic hormone -- insulin is, but only during specific times. So let's say (just pulling number out of the air to make a point) that GH rates a 5 on the "anabolic scale" and insulin normally ranks as 2, but there are times it rates as "10". Since insulin suppresses GH, most of the time you want to keep insulin levels down because GH is more anabolic during those times. But during the periods of time when insulin is a "10" it would be more important to have increased insulin levels than increased GH levels.

See my point? Things aren't static and nutritional strategies for serious athletes needs to take that into account.

Yes, i know what you say. It´s seems reasonable. I know that a lot of athletes inject themselves insulin, they are crazy, but I think it could be the reason why they do that.

I see that banana have a very high burden glycemic : 2528 per piece, so with it the insulin´s levels are going to be very high, so should I take this type of carb with protein post-exercise?

That is exactly what I have post-training to increase insulin. Bananas are perfect for that. Add a glass of skim milk (raw organic if you can get it and assuming you don't have a milk allergy) and you have a perfect post workout meal (it even has the approximate 4:1 ratio of carbs to protein and is very low in fat -- and it is real food). Add a some BCAAs and you are golden.

Interestingly... a banana + skim milk has been a staple post-workout meal for bodybuilders for decades before scientific research confirmed what bodybuilders already knew... it helps you recover and add muscle.

And you are right... there is a very good reason why non-natural bodybuilders inject insulin post workout. The anabolic properties of insulin (at least post intense training) far outweigh whatever you are losing in suppression of GH. But timing is everything with insulin (whether you are spiking it naturally through diet or unnaturally through injections). And that time is the period immediately post workout.

This is really the most important tweak I think that needs to be made to the Zone diet for serious strength/power athletes and bodybuilders. It is more important that the quibbles over whether to get more than 1g of protein/lb or not. It is more important than the debate over whether extra calorie requirements should be met with extra blocks or only extra fat blocks.

Proper workout nutrition is the most important factor in your diet according to just about every source I have ever read. Some have gone so far as to say that if your workout nutrition is perfect, you can pretty much screw up badly the rest of the day and you will still make progress. I am not sure I would go that far, but it does highlight just how important workout time nutrition is.

One thing that should be taken into account, BTW, is that you may not really be going out of the Zone by having a high GI carb + protein meal in a 4:1 ratio. You see, intense exercise increases your insulin sensitivity, so the ratio range of the "Zone" being roughly from .6 to 1.0 P:C might not apply during this period. The range of the new post exercise "Zone" might be (and I am just throwing out a number for argument's sake) 0.1-0.5 or something like that. My point is, the Zone for the way your body operates 22 hours of the day may not be the same Zone for the way your body operates post intense exercise. This is just a hypothesis on my part, I am not claiming to know this for a fact, but it makes sense since science does confirm that intense exercise increases insulin sensitivity briefly and we already know that insulin can be highly anabolic post exercise.

So what I am suggesting as a possible answer is not that Dr. Sears is wrong about the Zone, but rather that the Zone is not static, even for the same person, based on his or her activity. It may be mostly static, but when you seriously disrupt the homeostasis of the body, it also shifts the Zone for a brief period of time.

I hope this makes sense.

Just a comment...

I am a more serious zoner, and so I really have not seen the convincing evidence that a Zoner should eat a high carb snack after a workout, especially if the goal is to raise insulin levels.

Of course, I am not an athlete, and I sure wish that some more athletic zoners would contribute to this discussion.

I don´t really know if it´s good. I know that insulin it´s a very anabolic hormone in some specific times, but I know thas high levels of insulin are bad for a lot lot lot of things.

What you think about take 25 grams of amino acids, should I include in my daily protein count?

Francisco, you might want to submit your question to the Ask Dr. Sears feature on drsears.com to see what his thoughts are.

You can submit it here:

http://www.drsears.com/Home/tabid/3...fault.aspx
(scroll down to thebottom of the page and click on the Ask a Question link)

Thanks Sue, I´m going to do that. I hope Dr Sears answer me.

25 grams sounds like overkill to me, but the studies are all over the map on what is the ideal amount of BCAAs to take per kg of body weight.

Personally, just like supplementing with fish oils doesn't count towards your fat blocks, I wouldn't count Glutamine and BCAAs against your protein blocks.

You're welcome! I'll be watching to see if your question is one that he chooses to answer.

Francisco, one beauty of the Zone Diet is that you can tweak it and see if you like the results or not. Once I get back in a routine (The combination of high stress and German Volume Training is knocking me on my behind right now), i will try elevating my carbs post workout and see 1. How I feel, 2. How doe sit impact my health, 3. Do I gain visible lean muscle mass, 4. Do I gain excess fat.

Within about 30 days we should have an idea of how well this program is working for building muscle. I'm a hard gainer who is quite sensitive to extra inflammation and insulin hangovers, so I'm actually a pretty good anecdotal "canary in a coal mine."

I always make sure to end every workout with a HIIT (high intensity interval training) to elevate HGH levels. I also supplement with glutamine.

I cyclist friend of mine has reported that cyclists inject insulin after races. Since Gramin / Chipotle riders are using Dr. Sears technology to lower inflammation, I wonder if they are still doing this. I would tend to think not, but I'm not sure anyone would admit it if they did.

Take a look at these:

http://www.zonediet.com/tabid/130/i...overy.aspx

http://www.zonediet.com/tabid/143/i...bs-to.aspx

BTW Sue, from one of the articles you posted is the following tidbit:

"For the race, our staff physiologist created a recipe of steamed rice (white rice for the high-glycemic properties that they need while on the bikes racing, this being the only time that we wanted a higher-glycemic food for the athletes)"

And these are Zone endurance athletes using High GI carbs (along with egg and meat protein).

Sue, those meals look awesome! The presentation is great. I'll likely try and put some together and I might be asking a few questions.

Matthew, I mentioned the cyclists DO NOT follow a Zone Diet while riding because, frankly, they can't - they burn way to much ATP too quickly to burn their fat stores or dietary fat. Therefore, they have to use dietary carbs to supply their ATP.

I did note that they claim this is the only time they eat out of the Zone, which infers that they they don't spike insulin after the race (not stated absolutely, though).

Anyway, I'm going to put your theories to the only anecdotal test that matters to me - me. Ha ha.

It sounds like you recommend a 4-1 ratio of high GI carbs (banana, for example) to protein.

I have about 147 lbs of lean body mass - how many grams of protein should I ingest? What kind of protein and in what amounts?

I'll let you know how I progress - but I want to make sure I do it right.

<div class='NTForums_Quote'>Posted By Matthew on 04/05/2009 2:21 PM

BTW Sue, from one of the articles you posted is the following tidbit:

"For the race, our staff physiologist created a recipe of steamed rice (<b>white rice for the high-glycemic properties that they need while on the bikes racing, this being the only time that we wanted a higher-glycemic food for the athletes</b>)"

And these are Zone endurance athletes using High GI carbs (along with egg and meat protein).</div>

One reason I posted the info was precisely because of the mention of the rice snack. (I was not the person who challenged your info about the high GI carb snack earlier in this thread.)

Jeffrey:

One of the reasons I mention the high GI carbs is to point out that there are not always contra-indicated for athletes. Sometimes they have a distinct benefit. Certainly during an endurance race is one such time, but it is not the only such time that high GI carbs can be beneficial. I am glad that you are open-minded enough to give it a go yourself.

One of the recommendation that I have read is 0.8g of high GI carbs for every KG of body weight. I think you mentione that your BFP was 9% so that means your body weight is around 162? That is roughly 74 kg. Multiplied by 0.8 that comes out to roughly 60g of high GI carbs. At a 4:1 ratio, that means 15g of easily digestible protein. The meal should be minimal in fat. This meal should ideally be consumed in the first 15 minutes post workout. That makes this meal roughly 300 calories. Given that you told me that you presently eat around the 2,000 calorie range (sometime more, sometimes less) assuming you add this post workout meal to what you are already eating (and don't cut back on other meals), I am willing to bet you will notice a that you are gaining muscle at a great rate than you have thus far.

Give it a fair go (and give it enough time to work) and I will be interested to hear back what your experiences are.

By the way, if you are particularly insensitive to insulin, you may want to adjust the ratio of carbs to protein down from 4:1 down to 2:1. That would make you post w/o drink/meal 60g of carbs and 30g of protein (360 calories). Or you could keep the protein at 15g and decrease the carbs to 30g. That makes your post w/o meal only 180 extra calories. personally I think the first option is the better one. An extra 360 calories three days per week (on workout days) could support hypothetically an additional 1/3 or so of a lb. of muscle per week. Of course some of that will be lost due to the thermogenic effects of feeding. If I recall correctly, you mentioned that you had gained somewhere in the order of 2 lb. of muscle in 7-8 weeks (I may be wrong about the numbers you posted). So we are talking about possibly doubling the rate at which you gain muscle, at least in the short term (remember, the further away you are from your genetic max the easier it is to gain muscle, and the closer you get, the harder it is to gain muscle).

Bottom line is that I think if you give it a solid month and keep giving it your all in the gym, you will be very happy with the results.

Thanks for having an open mind.

Thanks Jeffrey!

Sorry Sue, perhaps I my recollection is incorrect, but I thought you had mentioned in a different thread that you thought my suggestions regarding post workout nutrition were not a good idea. If I had you confused with someone else, I apologize.

No worries! I just thought you were maybe confusing me with another person.

Well, maybe Sue is referring to me when she talks about the other person who was challenging Matthew earlier in this thread?

I like to keep my mind open about the whole thing, and I really think that the dialogue is good here.

Sue, wasn't it YOU that posted the information about how athletes tend to have a hard time with the thought of burning fat for ATP rather than carbs? I think that this is what Matthew is talking about.

Frankly, I see a bunch of discrepencies between some of the statements that Sears has written on this subject--although I must admit that I had never really given it much thought, since it really didn't concern me (not being a hard core athlete). Makes me wonder if Matthew is on to something here.

Sue, question directed to you, here it is, do you think that elevating insulin levels by consuming a 4:1 carb to protein snack is a good idea after an intense workout? I guess I am really interested in hearing what you have to say about it, since I know that you generally lean to the side of doing everything possible to decrease inflammation in the body. So, what IS your opinion on that?

I already got a response from the Zone Labs team on this question, so please let us know what you think!