I've been a zoner for about a year and am a competitive triathlete. I've never had much of an issue implementing the zone into my day to day life and training.... I now have hit a bit of a creativity road block while planning a backpacking trip. Does anyone have any recipe ideas for this occasion? Most of the pre-made dehydrated meals are carb intense

Jeanine IMO you have a little more lee way on fats and carbs when backpacking because of the exertion.

(however, you being a triathlete maybe backpacking is a cruise compared to your training)

Backpacking, I do stay away from the processed dehydrated stuff.

Jerky, trail mixes with out the M&Ms <img src='desktopmodules/ntforums/images/emoticons/sad.gif' height='20' width='20' border='0' title='Sad' align='absmiddle'>

Its pretty easy to get your fats and protiens, but, very hard to find favorable carbs that are light enough for your pack.
That being the case dried fruits (raisons, blueberrys) end up in my pack as well.

If it is a short trip like a couple days, some apples normally are a great treat.

Take some Zone bars also.

Just a suggestion. Reconfigure your blocks using your bodyweight plus the weight of your backpack. Increase your blocks based on that. Trail mix and beef jerky won't go bad on the trail.

kevin

It wouldn't advise to incorporate the weight of the backpack into one's stats becasue it's going to throw off the LBM result by too much. The more appropriate way to do it would be to increase activity level to compensate for carrying a heavy pack.

The reason for weighing yourself is to match your protein requirements with your body mass? The heavier you are, the more calories you use just existing. Add a 20#backpack and your workload is increased. So you need extra protein to compensate. Just my 2cent opinion.

kevin

I think that wearing the backpack and weighing in makes sense. The extra weight increases the workload, as Kevin said. The calculator would measure this as lean body mass, and the added lbm would calculate out for a higher protein requirement.

You could also just increase the activity factor, but IMO either way there is probably going to be some margin for error.

Hi Kevin,

While the numbers would probably work out about the same, there are other considerations. Among them, some people monitor their LBM with the calculator result to be certain they're not losing muscle over time. If they are a backpacker, this would necessitate artificially inflating their weight for their calculations for all seasons, di they done back pack all year, or else keeping two sets of stats, one with the weight of the pack, one without. Another is that the person would have to remember to calculate their protein requirement using a lower activity level than their actual level, assuming that for their actual activity level they would be taking taken into account that are exercising while they carring weight. This could cause confusion for some individuals, or may sound just plain old too complicated to others. IMHO, it's easier to stick with actual weight for the stats and change activity level, as recommended.

Sue or anyone, what are some favorable carbs that are light weight for back packing? I really cannot think of any. Dehydrated foods are light, but, very unfavorable.

Pemmican, the indians and trappers used to use was shredded jerky, nuts, animal fat, juniper berries.

Think about it pretty close to the Zone. It most likely did not taste to great, but, was a concentrated meal and would keep in a pack.

Cowboys would put a side of bacon in a saddlebag, beans, and sometimes some flour for biscuits. Not favorable, but, when working hard you stayed pretty thin.

Hi Paul!

I don't know Paul. I do day hikes, but not true backpacking where you need more than a day's worth of food. I'll usually bring a light weight lunch that doesn't need to be on ice, and Dr. Sears Zone bars and soy nuts for the rest of my day's food. My daughter once did a 3 week sea kayaking trip in the wilderness (Sea of Cortez; in a preserve type of area with no civilization) where they were only allowed 2 small stuff sacks for the trip (planes dropped water for them on specific days at pre arranged sites. She brought with her a bottle of extra virgin olive oil (on the smaller side; used a bottle with a special seal designed ont to leak). It turned out to be a very wise choice in he estimation. Its a heavier item though, so it's probably not the optimal choice for backpacking.

Jeanine, one favorable carb that is really light is steel cut oats. I take a snack zip lock bag and put in 3 tablespoons steel cut oats, tiny pinch of stevia, tablespoon of oat bran, tablespoon of ground flax seed, slivered almonds, dried cranberrys, blue berries and raisins, for backpacking some dry milk, add boiling water and you have a pretty good carb/fat for breakfast. Some jerky or some cheese and your good to go and not to heavy to carry.

Paul,

Thanks for all your suggestions. I had thought of the steel cut oats, but I'm worried that they take so long to cook that I'll use too much cooking fuel. I had thought of rolled oats as a compromise even though I know they have higher glycemic rating relative to the steel cut version. Definitely will do dried fruit jerky and nuts.

Let me know if you think of anything else and thanks again!

Not sure if this would work, perhaps too heavy, but if you take a small wide mouth thermos, you could put the oats into a thermos and pour boiling water over them the night before. Then, in the morning they will be cooked (not perfectly, but it would do for "roughing it".

Rolled oats are definitely an option, too. Yes, they are considered unfavorable, but really I don't think there is a lot of difference in GL.

Soy nuts are also a good option, but to me, I don't really have good satiety with them (for others, maybe it is different).

And, I also agree that unfavorable carbs are probably not going to play a factor, as backpacking demands quite a bit of energy.

BTW, I believe that the idea of weighing with the backpack on is really only to calculate the protein requirement for the backpacking trip. So, it would not be necessary to keep 2 sets of stats, unless you are carrying that pack around with you 24/7/365!

I don't see the rationale behind choosing a lower activity level when weighing with the pack on. IMHO, I think it would be wise to weigh with the pack on, and use the same activity level as one would perceive their activity level to be for the backpacking trip. Makes sense to me, because one is not only carrying around extra weight, but also exerting more muscle to carry around that weight.

If you choose the appropriate activity level to take into account that you are exercising carrying extra weight, and then you also use an inflated LBM in the calculation (by including the addition of the weight of the pack to you total weight for the LBM portion of the calculation), then the result will be an overestimation of your proetin requirement. In other words you'll be eating more than you need to. Eating more protein and more fully balanced blocks than necessary will take you out of the Zone.

If Jeanine is a training triathlete, then, she has a pretty generous number of blocks she can eat. I bet she has a real good handle on what blocks she can eat on this trip.

The thing about backpacking is if you are going for more than a couple of days, weight in your pack is critical. I know guys that cut their toothbrushes in half, trim extra paper off the edges of maps, buy titanium sporks, the list goes on and on to get that weight down.

I myself go to great lengths to keep the weight down in the pack. Food can be the heaviest items you carry if you are going for several days to a week. That is why dehydrated foods are almost a must.

Most likely some of your meals will be dehydrated, but, the rolled oats are still a good option. I do eat the steel cut oats just after pouring boiling water on them after they cool down a little, and I admit it is like eating small gravel.

One of the things that can happen when backpacking is getting bound up (constipated). Espescially if your used to eating fresh fruits, veggies, and salads. The way to avoid this is staying hydrated. Camelbaks are great because it is easy to get at your water (i assume there will be a source of water where your packing into).

Also, try to work in some bran, maybe the dried fruits rehydrate them in your oat meal, work in some dried prunes (just dont overdo it).

Bottomline is I dont think you can avoid non favorable carbs and at the same time keep your pack light. But, the good news is that you will be doing way more for your health with the exercise and clean air than the rest of us sitting on our butts right now.

Sue,
I would not recommend choosing an activity level to accommodate the extra weight AND weighing yourself with the pack at the same time! NOPE, that wasn't what I was saying.

The way to do it is to choose the activity level that is appropriate for the ACTIVITY, and then use the weight that reflects the weight of the pack. That is, if we are going to be anal about counting blocks while on the trip. But, it is good to at least get an estimate.

Paul,
I agree, Jeanine probably has a good idea of the # of blocks, anyway. Plus, I am guessing that one would want to err on the side of a bit too much rather than too little. Nothing worse than being out in the middle of nowhere and your food supply runs out!

Additionally, for most of us, the exertion of carrying the pack is going to be enough to accommodate those unfavorable carbs, but I do like the idea of rolled oats. Very light, and really not a bad choice among the unfavorables.

Sounds like an exciting trip. I have always wanted to do a backpacking trip.

Hmmm, someone commented that this will probably be a "walk in the park" for her, as she is already a trained athlete!

Hi Cran!

I interpret the activity level for backpacking to be based on hiking while simultaneously carrying extra weight. Am in correct in assuming that you are saying when you determine the activity level for backpacking you consider only the hiking part and do not also consider that additional weight is being carried?

Also, I'm puzzled by your comment "for most of us, the exertion of carrying the pack is going to be enough to accommodate those unfavorable carbs". Can you expand on that?

Thanks! :-)

good thread. i just completed 500mi. of the AT (1/1 to 2/28)http://www.trailjournals.com/entry....id=258977. i went from 238# to 195# and lost energy by the end. im taking a break and working on my menu/diet. im sure the answers are on this site. my pack weight was 35# (gear to get down to 0*) 50% of that was food. rather then re-suppy in towns i would suggest mail drops (dollar general didn't quite meet my needs). as you walk 17-19 miles a day you may have a 3000' elevation gain and loss in those miles. you/i burnt up a few calories<img src='desktopmodules/ntforums/images/emoticons/smile.gif' height='20' width='20' border='0' title='Smile' align='absmiddle'>i wish you well on your trip.

Sue,

Do you have any useful suggestions for getting some favorable carbs in on Jeanine's backpacking trip? It think that is what her question was about.

There have been other members who have suggested that the only way to go is with unfavorable carbs, because favorable carbs create too much bulk. I am merely suggesting that the exertion from hiking is likely going to burn off the carbs as energy.

I have a treadmill that asks for my bodyweight. Based on that it tells me how many calories I'm burning per mile. It also tells me the amount at zero incline and up to 10% incline. If I tell it I weigh 200 pounds (my 170 pounds plus a 30 pound weight in my backpack) it says I'm burning 150 calories per mile. If I set the incline at 10% is says I'm burning 250 calories per mile.

If you're working outside of your comfort zone, the body will prefer carbs. That's because working outside your comfort zone is an extra stress to the body and it will respond by releasing cortisol. I still suggest upping the protein blocks to reflect your weight plus the weight of the backpack. But I'd double or triple the carb blocks. If you take in more protein than needed, the excess is deaminated and fed into the Krebs cycle. If you take in more carb than needed, the worst that happens is some weight gain. If you don't take in enough protein and carb, you'll go into ketosis. You'll burn fat for energy but I can guarantee you won't feel good and won't have enough energy to enjoy your trip. I've done 50 and 100 mile races while in ketosis. It slowed me down badly, making me the last finisher in those races. In one race I was so far back I missed the cutoff time and didn't get an official finish.

Were I to try a multi-day hike, I'd bring granola bars and protein bars.

Just my two cents

kevin

Getting favourable carbs is going to be very difficult.

My first thought would be to try and get 1 block of favourable carb per meal and replace the other blocks with a 3x fat block. As Zoners we burn fat for energy so the additional unfavourable carbs are really not needed for "energy".

So a meal could be 3 P, 1 C & 9 F. More fat if your protein source is too lean.
If you can get 2 favourable blocks of Carb then 3P, 2C and 6F.

I actually do this now when I don't feel like eating all my carbs. My energy levels have been good and I've had no negative body comp issues doing this.

It would really depend on how many days/meals are required and what kind of weight you will be carrying. Is there a place to restock during the trip?

I haven't looked at the dehydrated foods in the store. I do make my own for the kids and I snack on them once in a while. What about dehydrated vegetables? Green beans, squash might be better than the dried fruits.

Have a blast on your trip and please report back on what worked or didn't work for you.

Matt

Kevin, I just read your post.

There are people in the Crossfit community using basically a mixture of what I described in my last post. Once the body is being fueled by fat those carbs are not needed like we all have been accustomed to in the past.

I have not participated in any long treks like you have and I'm basing this off of what I have read but I see a lot of changes in how the endurance athletes are fueling themselves.

Also everyone is different and depending on how they have been fueling themselves for their training in the past may be able to handle different levels of macronutrients.

Matt

Thanks for all of your help all!

I'm really not that worried about my blocks with respect to my pack weight (thanks for pointing that out Paul) . I'm active as is. I've decided that the best thing to do is supplement dehydrated food with foil packaged tuna and chicken (they make 'em without can's these day) to raise the p to c ratio. I'll let y'all know if I have any profound revelations on the trek for future use.

Best regards!

Youre' welcome Jeanine!

I bought the first Zone book sometime in 1995 and followed it carefully for years. I never found it helped my running much. I found after my sunday long runs (4-5 hours) I would not be as sore or tired as in the carb-loading days. But I would run out of energy and end up walking some the end of the run. Adding fat blocks didn't help. In fact it seemed to make matters worse.

My understanding is the body uses carbs for instant energy. At low heart rates the body is burning mostly fat but always with a small amount of carb. The Krebs cycle demands it. I believe the Zone diet depletes the body of stored glycogen in liver and muscles. Once that's gone, you're toast. Training lowers your resting heart rate which suggests while running a lower percentage of carb is being used along with fat.

So for me it's a matter of finding the minimum amount of protein to maintain muscle strength and at least double the amount of carbs that the book suggests. I tried Zone bars for the long runs but they didn't make much difference. I assume the protein slowed the absorption of carb, the opposite of what I needed when running. For me candy bars worked better.

kevin