Hi, there:

Just wondering if you could help me understand the zone a bit better...I am interested in learning more about essential fatty acids. Right now, I'm about 115 lbs. I leaned down quite a bit following kettlebell conditioning combined with strength training (a la crossfit - 3 days on, 1 day off), as well as following the zone diet (at 16 blocks per day). However, I have very recently (over the past week and-a-half) started 'plumping' back up...it seems that the muscle I had built is diminishing and being replaced with fat. I am considering purchasing omega-3 capsules; do you think this would help? I haven't changed anything regarding my diet and exercise, so I'm just wondering why I'm feeling 'mushy'...any input?

Hi Jessica!

Begin by taking a look at you current block amount and balance and whether or not it is appropriate for your current needs. Most likely you are eating too much and increasing body fat. I doubt you have lost LBM on 16 blocks a day. At 115 pounds of total weight, if were training at the level of an elite athlete, the most you would eat would be around 14 blocks daily (and Crossfit alone does not qualify as elite).

I highly recommend that everyone consume one of the Zone Labs fish oils daily. I doubt it will be the only thing needed to turn your situation around.

Ooops! I actually meant 11 blocks, duh. I ordered a food scale yesterday - possibly I am overestimating my portions. So when would I consume my fish oil? Would I then not include another source of monounsaturated fat at that meal?

Thanks for getting back to me!

Your welcome Jessica! 11 sounds much better. You can take fish oil at any time of day, though it's best to take it with a meal. Consider it a supplement and take it in addition to the fat in the meal.

SOOO WRONG

<div class='NTForums_Quote'>Posted By antonio on 02/22/2009 12:01 AM

<div class='NTForums_Quote'> (and Crossfit alone does not qualify as elite). </div> SOOO WRONG</div>

I have to agree. What little I've seen, Crossfit can be extreme.

kevin

Hi!

The elite (1.0) activity level is usually reserved for those who train for multiple hours daily at the level of a professional athlete or who perform strength training daily using heavy weight. Crossfit does not fit this description. The crossfit Zoners I've been in touch with do not eat one gram per pound of LBM. They successfully use the Active (.8) or the Very Active (.09) levels. If a person consumes more food than they require daily, they're not going to be able to stay in the Zone.

I would not recommend using elite either. I am a Crossfitter. I mixed CrossFit with heavy weights. I also mixed CrossFit with lots of cardio days. I was training more than 8 times per week. .8 factor was probably more than enough food. I tried .9 and 1.0 and it was too much food.

I hold the CrossFit Nutrition certification. The recommended multiplier is .7. Then it is recommended to tweak carbs & fat before increasing the amount of food. An "elite" CrossFitter (firebreather) may eat like this.

18 blocks Protein
36 blocks Fat (2X)
18 blocks Carb. 30-50% post work out balance spread out throughout the remainder of the meals.

PWO meal is carbs only high density low fiber no protein or fat to slow down the processing eaten within 1/2 hour of work out. This is not a recommendation for the average athlete. The is for elite performers at the top of their game trying to get maximize every tweeking they can.

so the day could look like this.

Bf 5p 3c 10f
Ln 4p 2c 8f
S1 4p 2c 8f
PWO 8c
Dn 4p 2c 8f
S3 1p 1c 2f

The people over at CrossFit have done a lot of experimenting with the Zone and variations of it. The base Zone is the recommended starting point.

They have athletes from all walks of live performing very well using Zone techniques.

If they are performing at Elite levels & do not have a coach or trainer that is well versed in the Zone I would recommend finding one.

Why try to re-invent the wheel.

Matt

Oh and to take out the guess work that PWO meal would be boiled sweet potatoes & unsweetened apple sauce with cinammon.

Hey Matt, good to see you! How is it going for you?

Matt, so you're saying that an "elite" crossfitter should base their zone off of an 18 block zone with double the fat? I am following the zone diet that was published in the Crossfit Journal issue #21 and it says an 18 block diet is recommended for a medium to large male, and a 25 block diet is recommended for an Athletic well muscled male, and that is what my mentor (the owner of my crossfit gym) is categorizing me as.

I am 32 yrs old, 6'1" 205lbs, former college football player...not sure of my LBM, but in fairly good shape (not as good YET, as when i was playing football). As far as activities performed during the week I participate in the daily crossfit WOD, 2 spin classes a week, 1 night of softball for myself, i coach little league, and other than that i sit behind a desk all day.

I am concerned that the 25 block zone is too high, but i definately want to maximize my potential, and not limit myself because i am under fueling my body. My goal is to get stronger increase lean muscle mass and reduce body fat.

Any info will be greatly appreciated,

Thanks, Matt D.

Hi Matt D,

I'm not Matt (Hi Matt!), but here's my two cents.


It will really depend upon your LBM, too. 25 blocks daily is too high for you. Here are a couple of examples. If at 200 pounds total weight your LBM is around 175 (if you are on the lean side of ideal, about 11-12 % body fat) you'll need around 20 blocks daily. If at 200 pounds your LBM is around 160 (if you are a little above ideal, about 20% body fat) you'd need around 18 blocks a day. in the Zone once you should eat to provide the appropriate amount of protein for your LBM at your activity level, complement if with the appropriate amount of carb for you needs and add enough fat to support your needs (a minimum of 3 grams total fat to every P block eaten, counting both the fat hidden in the protein source and that in the added fat block).

Sue,
Thank you for the response. You are great! After surfing around the forums it is obvious that you are very well informed and generous enough to share and help others...thank you for that.

I punched in my numbers and i am between 172 & 178 lbs of LBM (depending on if i'm 200lbs or 205lbs), and depending on the level of activity i used to calculate, the response i received was....
205lbs-elite athlete=25 blocks
205lbs-very active=23 blocks
200lbs-elite athlete=25 blocks
200lbs-very active=22blocks.

Then i took it a step further and used 200lbs ACTIVE and i got 20 blocks. So i guess the bottom line is, how active i really am? It seems as though that will determine my daily perscribed blocks.

Do you think i should experiment with the lower number of blocks? Begin with a 20 block diet then listen to my body and adjust from there. If i feel like i am lacking energy, or "bonking" during my workouts then increase the blocks or increase the fat?

Thanks, Matt

You're welcome! I'm happy to help!

Yes, exactly; do that. I totally agree to use 200, Active, 20 bl, and extra fat if needed.

Also, after you've been in the Zone for a couple weeks, put your stats into the Zone Calculator again to get a better idea of your LBM. You pre-Zone weight may include retained fluid that you're not even aware you have, and it can slightly skew your LBM number. Most people drop a bit of retained fluid when they first lower their insulin levels into the Zone. After that if you see your LBM decreasing with time, you should add another fully balanced block to you day. The goal is for LBM to stay the same or increase (with increases depending upon whether the person includes regular strength training their workouts).

The bottom line, the daily protein/block requirement depends on both LBM and activity. BTW, the activity factors, which represent grams of protein per pound of LBM, are Sedentary 0.5, Light 0.6, Moderate 0.7, Active 0.8, Very Active 0.9, Elite 1.

Good luck!

Sue,

Thanks a bunch, i appreciate the wisdom. I will repost to show my outcome.

Sorry I haven't been back since I posted my example. That was for someone a little smaller than you but not too much.

If you search around you will find a few things in Crossfit. Not everyone is Zone strict. A lot of experimenting has happened using the zone in the Crossfit community.

The great thing about the Zone is how you can adjusted to fit your needs as you learn and listen to your body.

I'm currently doing 16 blocks with an LBM between 150 & 160.

I have finally got back into daily mainpage WODs with additional skill work 5 days a week plus 1 day of Running or stairs. I have good energy and my recovery is pretty quick.

The key is to listen to your body. Keeping a journal will help you with that. Document all the food & drink you eat and how you feel. The more minor the details the more exact you can dial it in.

There are many Crossfitters using .7 factors and then there are guys using 1.0. Then the guys that don't measure anything, just eating paleo ingredients. You will find the elite athlete's diet will vary as to what works for them.


321GO!

Matt

Hi Matt,

Photobucket Qn...

Did you recently reinstate your photobucket photo link in your signature, and if so, how?

My photobucket photo/link got wiped out of my signature here when the forums were recently being upgraded (I guess that's what thappened to it, because I never took it out). I've tried putting it back (I pasted in the html link option found under the photo in my album set up page, same one I used in the past...or at least as I recall) but the signature will not accept it. I tried a bunch of other things...nothing happens.

Thanks for any tips you might have.

Sue sorry I haven't back since my last response.

I did not do anything. Not sure what happenned to yours. I see the pics aren't working.

Not sure what to tell you on this one.

Thanks Matt!

Hey Matt,

Got a question for you regarding CrossFit/Paleo/Zone. I started CF/P/Z in 8/08 as a 28 year-old male, 5'5", 140 lbs, 16% BF. Got my CF Level 1 Cert in 11/08. Now I'm 29, 125 lbs, 13% BF, and still building my CF "skills." Since starting CF/P/Z I've used the CF "small male" daily block recomendation of 16 blocks. Since starting I've always had my ups-and-downs with hunger and/or low energy, but the last month has been really bad. Evaluated my block intake and see that according to the Zone calculations, I should only be around 12-13 blocks per day. So I've cut back to 13 blocks per day and increased my fat intake about 2-3x. I've only been doing this about a week, but hunger and energy are still an issue. Also, being a "small male" I would like to add more muscle mass, but not loose the lean physique I've attained in the past few months. So my question is (finally)...in your opinion, considering my size, issues with hunger and energy, and goals to stay lean and add muscle, where should I be at with my daily blocks and additional fat?

Thanks!

<div class='NTForums_Quote'>Posted By Chad on 03/17/2009 11:11 AM

Hey Matt,

Got a question for you regarding CrossFit/Paleo/Zone. I started CF/P/Z in 8/08 as a 28 year-old male, 5'5", 140 lbs, 16% BF. Got my CF Level 1 Cert in 11/08. Now I'm 29, 125 lbs, 13% BF, and still building my CF "skills." Since starting CF/P/Z I've used the CF "small male" daily block recomendation of 16 blocks. Since starting I've always had my ups-and-downs with hunger and/or low energy, but the last month has been really bad. Evaluated my block intake and see that according to the Zone calculations, I should only be around 12-13 blocks per day. So I've cut back to 13 blocks per day and increased my fat intake about 2-3x. I've only been doing this about a week, but hunger and energy are still an issue. Also, being a "small male" I would like to add more muscle mass, but not loose the lean physique I've attained in the past few months. So my question is (finally)...in your opinion, considering my size, issues with hunger and energy, and goals to stay lean and add muscle, where should I be at with my daily blocks and additional fat?

Thanks!</div>

I am not a cross-fitter, although I do respect the CF crowd. My training is more along the lines of powerlifting, Olympic weightlifting, and combat sports.

You will also find that I tend to break a bit more than the other Zone dieters here and Dr. Sears protocols than a lot of others here. The bottom line is that if you are trying to gain muscle mass without gaining body fat, in addition to a well-designed resistance training program, you also need to eat a surplus of calories. Fred "Dr. Squat" Hatfield, recommends taking your FFM and multiplying it by two. In your case, this is roughly 220. 5 days per week, add 220 additional calories ABOVE your maintenance levels. 2 days per week, eat 220 calories LESS than your maintenance (a difference of 440 calories from your high calorie days). Make sure your high calorie days are on training days and your low calorie days are on non-training days. This is known as zig-zag dieting. This is the starting point. If your LBM is not moving up after a couple weeks of doing this, add an additional 200 calories to your high calorie days. Keep doing this until you start gaining weight. If you notice after a couple of weeks that you are adding body fat, back off a bit on the high calorie days.

Basically, you just need to make incremental changes to your diet if you want to put on muscle mass while maintaining present body fat levels. Add a little, give it time to see results, if you don't see results, add a little bit more and repeat the process until you see stead increases in muscle mass. For someone with relatively low bodyfat levels, particularly someone who isn't a novice to training, it is very difficult to gain any muscle mass in a calorie restrictive environment.

Also, I happen to believe that the basic caloric requirements of the Zone are far too small for someone who is strength training regularly and with the goal of trying to add muscle mass. The protein recommendations are probably fine. According to almost every activity + BMR calculators, my maintenance level of calories is at least 1,200 calories higher than what is suggested in the Zone. I have seen activity calculators that place my daily caloric requirements as high as 2,200 calories higher than what is recommended in the Zone. Even at the lowest levels of those calculators, there is simply no way I could maintain my muscle mass eating 8,400 calories less per week. Even if I were able to lose a lb. of fat per week doing that (3,500 calories), that means that I would also be losing about 2 lbs. of muscle per week because the calorie deficit has to come from somewhere... and that means breaking down muscle mass to supply the energy needed by my body. You just cannot get around the law the thermodynamics.

Most scientific research jibes with the idea that 0.8-1.0 gram of protein per lb. of LBM per day is sufficient (I tend to break with the Zone on the idea that consuming more protein than that, up to perhaps 1.5 g/lb. of LBM for some training regularly with heavy weights may not work even better). I also think that while the carb recommendations may be good in general, there is a huge proven benefit to eating post workout high GI carbs, particularly when trying to gain muscle mass. I usually eat a banana and another piece of fruit right after I workout with weights.

What I would recommend is that you stick to the high end of the protein/carb ratio suggested by the Zone. But then add in some extra pre-workout and post-workout carbs in addition to what is recommended by the Zone. Then slowly and steadily add additional daily calories (many suggest additional healthy fat calories) until your bodyweight starts moving up. A relatively easy way to add calories like that is to take a an ounce of EVOO and pour it into 6-8 oz. of low sodium V8 juice. This makes the olive oil easier to drink and gives you some good nutrients from the vegetable juice as well. If you do that 1x per day, you are adding about 300 calories per day (50 calories from a cup of V8 juice and about 250 calories from an ounce of EVOO). If, after a couple weeks to a month of trying this, it isn't working, add in a little bit more to your pre/post workout meal OR try adding a second V8 + EVOO drink. Make small changes over time, give the changes time so that you can measure whether they are working or not and then make adjustments as needed, incrementally.

Dear Sue,

First off thank you for all your time you dedicate to helping people.
I am 6'3" 215 pounds , I recently lost 20 pounds in last three months eating "healthy" and keeping calories between 2000-2700 and working out hard.

I recently started crossfit and was introduced to the Zone. Is there a calorie amount associated with # of blocks? I did a little math and came up with about 2400 calories for a 25 block prescription. I think the zone blocks might be more complicated than that......

wouldnt keeping calories in check be the secret to loose fat?

Thank you, Adam

Dear Sue,

First off thank you for all your time you dedicate to helping people.
I am 6'3" 215 pounds , I recently lost 20 pounds in last three months eating "healthy" and keeping calories between 2000-2700 and working out hard.

I recently started crossfit and was introduced to the Zone. Is there a calorie amount associated with # of blocks? I did a little math and came up with about 2400 calories for a 25 block prescription. I think the zone blocks might be more complicated than that......

wouldnt keeping calories in check be the secret to loose fat?

Thank you, Adam

Hi Adam!

You're welcome!

You're close on the calorie count. One fully balanced Zone block is approximately 100 calories, give or take, depending on what foods you use to make up the block. If you follow the Zone principles you'll be eating a calorie restricted diet, but there's much more to losing stored fat than then simply keeping calories in check. You can find the details in Zone books. TOXIC FAT and THE ANTI-INFLAMMATION ZONE are both excellent detailed resources. Good luck in the Zone!