It's very difficult to get the AA content of foods. Even the USDA doesn't give the AA content! If you pay attention to USDA's tables, they just give C20:4, which include AA (C20:4,6) but also (C20:4,3). However, it seems that food like yolks, liver, salmon contain a relatively large amount of AA. For example, a portion of fresh salmon contains around 30 mg of AA. It means that a single portion of salmon a week is succeptible to lead to a spillover much easier than 30 portions of oatmeal a week, as all the GLA doesn't convert into AA. Does Dr Sears prevent people from eating raw salmon at all? If not, I don't understand the theory behind GLA and the spillover effect. In other word, the quantity of AA we get in food, even when we avoid eggs, fatty fishes and some kind of meat appears to be more than the 2 mg of GLA if it was converted entirely into AA.

[quote:e1a99006b2="zonadept"] In other word, the quantity of AA we get in food, even when we avoid eggs, fatty fishes and some kind of meat appears to be more than the 2 mg of GLA if it was converted entirely into AA.[/quote:e1a99006b2] You've raised an interesting question. Perhaps arachidonic acid from direct sources is metabolized differently than arachidonic acid converted from GLA.

Hi Scott, I'm glad you've understood my point. At first, I came with exactly the same explanation you gave, like say AA is metabolised in the liver, whereas GLA in some cells that have the capability of exerting a pro-inflammatory response. Then I found very interesting figures about GLA on Nutritiondata and USDA. The list I gave can be read in the other post I made: "GLA everywhere!" Very interestingly, I find that that GLA and AA quantities in diverse food where very of the same magnitude and averaging 50mg or so a day for an regular diet, maybe less for AA (10 or 20mg/day?)! I believe that 50mg of GLA and a similar quantity of AA is a quantity that doesn't pose any health concern. My own experience indicates that I get a "spillover" effect with GLA doses of 200mg a day. I now realize the implication of my discovery. Dr Sears theory was based on GLA and AA quantities that were 10 or 50 times lower. He brought the idea of the oatmeal and tested it. Unfortunately, the results are not in accordance with new findings. Some chapters of his books now need to be rewrite! I hope the man will be kind enough to thank me... and who knows add me to the acknowledgement list!

[quote:3399860186="zonadept"] My own experience indicates that I get a "spillover" effect with GLA doses of 200mg a day. I now realize the implication of my discovery. Dr Sears theory was based on GLA and AA quantities that were 10 or 50 times lower. He brought the idea of the oatmeal and tested it. Unfortunately, the results are not in accordance with new findings. Some chapters of his books now need to be rewrite! I hope the man will be kind enough to thank me... and who knows add me to the acknowledgement list![/quote:3399860186] Michael Kuerilla (sp?) has an entire article devoted to higher amounts of GLA on www.zonehome.com back in 1996 discussing this very issue--"arachidonicphobia". Perhaps because of the calorie-restricted, low-fat nature of the Zone, even small additional amounts of GLA above that already obtained from food can accumulate into excess AA. Some here have testified to that.

Scott and zoneadept. Thank you for this discussion. I have of late been interested in this topic. After a year on the Zone, all my bloodwork came back with lower numbers in the right places...except my "good" cholesterol which had dropped 5 points to 54. In some places I read that this is an acceptable as it is supposed to be above 40. My doctor had said it should be above 60. Regardless, I have been trying to figure out why it dropped since by all accounts of my actions, it should rise. On the Zone, began exercising daily (30 minutes of Nordic Track + some Pilates and dabbling in light weight lifting) in April.... The only thing I could think of is I eat oatmeal nearly every day. Is it too much? Is this the cause? How does one know if one is getting a "spillover" effect? Does the lady worry overmuch? :? I'm a vegetarian and avocados and eggs are a rare treat for me, so the amount of AA I get directly (at least from your list) is minimal. Most of the other Zone information is quite understandable. This one is way over my head apparently! Robbin P.S. I'd love to read the '96 article, but www.zonehome.com gives me site not found error...

Scott, I understand that one can be sensitive small amount of GLA. That said, a zone diet, from my findings, provides much more GLA than the 2mg. This is the whole oatmeal stuff that has to be forgotten! Angelrob, First, do not confuse GLA and AA! You're a vegetarian, so you shouldn't be getting AA (you might get some from diairy products though.) As for GLA, this is a different story. It's virtually everywhere. My bet is you get more GLA from you diet from the oatmeal you religiously eat every day. As for your relatively low levels of HDL, remember that you're vegetarian. Vegetarian people tend to have very low level of total cholesterol and normal level of HDL. You may be suffering from minor deficiencies. As long as you feel godd, you shouldn't worry about the mysterious "spillover". Stop eating your oatmeal for a week or 2 and see what it does.

[quote:b24e290283="angelrob"] Regardless, I have been trying to figure out why it dropped since by all accounts of my actions, it should rise. On the Zone, began exercising daily (30 minutes of Nordic Track + some Pilates and dabbling in light weight lifting) in April.... The only thing I could think of is I eat oatmeal nearly every day. Is it too much? Is this the cause? How does one know if one is getting a "spillover" effect? Does the lady worry overmuch? :?[/quote:b24e290283] Hi Robbin. It seems to me chronic inflammation may behind a low HDL. The right diet can raise it, exercise raises it, and interestingly, eradication of H. pylori infection with antibiotics raises it. (1)(2) The 2004 study showed an HDL increase of 25%. All of these approaches would reduce inflammation. Thus in theory, to the extent any AA accumulation from spillover or AA release from burning stored body fat would promote inflammation, it could keep HDL low. Additional omega-3 or less oatmeal would help. Also, what is your triglyceride/HDL ratio? I am of the opinion that the advice "higher the HDL the better" simply reflects the fact that the average person has higher trigylceride levels if not following a low dietary glycemic load. The lower your trigylcerides, perhaps your HDL doesn't need to be as high. In other words, the TG/HDL is probably more important than an absolute HDL number. I have gotten mixed messages on the "spillover" effect from oatmeal. It's in the books, but when I adivsed someone on this a few years ago, tech responded by saying it happens rarely. As Zoneadept said, cut back on the oatmeal, see what happens. [quote:b24e290283]P.S. I'd love to read the '96 article, but www.zonehome.com gives me site not found error...[/quote:b24e290283] Yes. There seems to be some trouble with the site. (1) Scharnagl H., et al "Effect of Heliobacter pylori eradication on high-density lipoprotein cholesterol" Am. J. Cardiol. 2004 Jan 15;93(2)219-20 (2) de Luis Da, et al "Improvements in lipid and haemostasis patterns after H. pylori infection eradication in type-1 diabetic patients." Clin. Nutr. 1999, Aug 18(4);227-31

[quote:d79d831a3a="zonadept"]Scott, I understand that one can be sensitive small amount of GLA. That said, a zone diet, from my findings, provides much more GLA than the 2mg. This is the whole oatmeal stuff that has to be forgotten![/quote:d79d831a3a] 2mg is not a daily recommendation. Its how much [i:d79d831a3a]supplemental[/i:d79d831a3a] GLA does one need in addition to the amounts obtained from diet. Basically, because of the enhanced desaturase enzyme activity from following a Zone-favorable diet plus amounts already inherent in some foods, his position is that one does not need much [i:d79d831a3a]supplemental [/i:d79d831a3a]GLA, and the amount in slow-cooked oatmeal does it.

Scott, Intersting info about H. Pylori. Thanks. About the oatmeal, I think Dr. Sears has gotten artefacts. If he witnessed spillover effects, it might have been due to other exposure to GLA. Remember than a single beef serving provides 15 mg of GLA. One gets probably 50 mg a day of GLA on a zone diet. The additional 2 mg GLA from oatmeal represent only a 4 % increase of the daily GLA intake. It's negligible and not likely to be responsible for the spillover effect. In other words, even if you try to avoid GLA by using my list (not exhaustive unfortunately), you'll get more than 2 mg a day. The Oatmeal stuff doesn't make any sense. Let's forget it.

[quote:1716a19e05="zonadept"] Intersting info about H. Pylori. Thanks.[/quote:1716a19e05] You're welcome. [quote:1716a19e05]One gets probably 50 mg a day of GLA on a zone diet. The additional 2 mg GLA from oatmeal represent only a 4 % increase of the daily GLA intake. It's negligible and not likely to be responsible for the spillover effect.[/quote:1716a19e05] Not all sources of GLA result in DGLA increases: Jenkins, D.K.; Mitchell, J.C.; Manku, M.S.; Horrobin, D.F. "Effects of different sources of gamma-linolenic acid on the formation of essential fatty acid and prostanoid metabolites" Med Sci Res 1988; 16: 525-526.

Scott and Zoneadept, thanks for the input. From all the posts flying around about this issue, I can see it's not an easy issue. So the "spillover" is extra AA being converted from the GLA? My Triglicerides are at 86, giving me a ratio of 1.59. Somewhere in the Zone books I thought I read that the ratio should be under 1 ideally. Although in today's question to Dr. Sears, he says under 2. My numbers are generally good, so I'm not terribly worried, just intrigued that the one that should have gone up went down. (I'm one of those kids who drove their parents insane with "Why?" when I was a kid :wink: ) I'll try giving up oatmeal for a few weeks this summer when smoothies will make a welcome breakfast. I feel great and have since I went on the Zone, so I'm not sure if I'll notice anything...maybe if I stop for the month before my next blood test :-) Robbin