White Light- you seem to be the resident expert on fish oil so your silence on my flaxseed oil question surprises me. Can you- OR ANYONE ELSE- tell me if flaxseed oil omega 3 (ALA) is very BAD for you (via arachadonic acid) vs. fish oil's omega 3 (GLA)- OR... is it not so much that it's BAD for you but rather just not as GOOD for you as fish oil? In a 1995 (I think) book Dr. Sears was very ALARMIST about the PERILS of flaxseed oil- but in this century's books he lightened up considerably in tone- describing flax oil as only less than optimal- but he dropped the ominous, earlier tone. GIVEN THAT I've heard good things re flax oil's effect on herpes- and nothing similar re fish oil- (in fact, there seem to be some potentially serious side effects with fish oil discussed in this forum)- I wonder why EXACTLY flax oil gets second class treatment in the Zone, at best- and gets treated as an illegal alien in earlier writings. Paging White Light, Dr. Sears, the moderator- ANYBODY WHO HAS A CLUE- please advise.

Here's a reply about flaxseed from an Ask Dr Sears on drsears.com: "Dear Peta: Flaxseed oil is rich the short chain Omega-3 fatty acid alpha linolenic acid (ALA). In fact, nearly 50 percent of the fatty acids in flaxseed oil are composed of ALA. The real benefits of Omega-3 fatty acid only begin to emerge when ALA is converted into the longer-chain Omega-3 fatty acids, such as eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA). EPA is critical for modulating eicosanoids, and DHA is a critical structural component for the brain. The conversion of ALA into EPA and DHA is slow and not exceptionally efficient because it takes about 10 grams of ALA to be converted into 1 gram of EPA. It?s not that flaxseed oil is a bad fat, it?s just not as good on a gram-for-gram basis as fish oil is, which contains both EPA and DHA. However, flaxseeds also contain phytochemicals known as lignins. These phytochemicals seem to have a role to play in cancer prevention. Therefore the best approach would be to sprinkle flaxseeds over your meals, and take supplemental fish oil. This ensures getting the necessary longer chain Omega-3 fatty acids along with the lignins from the flaxseeds. You don't have to add flaxseeds into fat block calculations. Dr. Barry Sears"

Thanks, JJinNJ. This is good information and is in line with Dr. Sears more recent kinder, gentler opinion about flax oil vs. his Old Testament MUCH HARSHER view. Is this the last word- or does anyone out there have reason to believe that Dr. Sears still holds to his earlier, alarmist view of flax oil/ALA/arachadonic acid/MAJOR PROBLEM cascade?

Hi Alan, [quote:d60cd36d99] [quote="alan"]White Light- you seem to be the resident expert on fish oil so your silence on my flaxseed oil question surprises me..[/quote:d60cd36d99] Thanks for the compliment. I was not ignoreing you, I was away. [quote:d60cd36d99] Can you- OR ANYONE ELSE- tell me if flaxseed oil omega 3 (ALA) is very BAD for you (via arachadonic acid) vs. fish oil's omega 3 (GLA)- OR... is it not so much that it's BAD for you but rather just not as GOOD for you as fish oil?.[/quote:d60cd36d99] Bad for you, is IMO a misleading question. depending on a lot of other dietary variables. addition of some ALA may be either good OR bad for you. Dose is crucial. Where 50MG ALA in a low omega 3 environment would certainly be good for you 1000MG would be bad for you. ANY surplus is used to produce bad eicosanoids. EPA inhibits the Delta 5 Desaturase so large amounts do not lead to conversion to AA and bad Eicosanoids like ALA does. [quote:d60cd36d99] In a 1995 (I think) book Dr. Sears was very ALARMIST about the PERILS of flaxseed oil- but in this century's books he lightened up considerably in tone- describing flax oil as only less than optimal- but he dropped the ominous, earlier tone. GIVEN THAT I've heard good things re flax oil's effect on herpes- and nothing similar re fish oil- (in fact, there seem to be some potentially serious side effects with fish oil discussed in this forum)-.[/quote:d60cd36d99] Can you elaborate ?? [quote:d60cd36d99] I wonder why EXACTLY flax oil gets second class treatment in the Zone, at best- and gets treated as an illegal alien in earlier writings. .[/quote:d60cd36d99] IMO it is an inferior semi substitute, I would only recommend it to the likes of a vegitarian who refused PGFO. [quote:d60cd36d99]Paging White Light, Dr. Sears, the moderator- ANYBODY WHO HAS A CLUE- please advise.[/quote:d60cd36d99] I will check tomorrow if you have more questions. If all else fails, try zonewhitelight@hotmail.com White Light

Thanks for your response White Light. I'll get my brother to read me the passage from the '95 book that was very anti-flax oil- I'll document the book, page, etc. When I told my brother about my purchase of flax based on great experience from someone who had herpes (I use lysine myself for that)- he read the '95 Sears passage that was TOTALLY anti-flax, although his (Sears') recent writings on flax oil seem to have a much mellower, more benign tone- as does your reply and JJinNJ's (hope I got that right). Thanks again- I will reply with the verbatim anti-flax message.

Flaxseed oil, herpes and vitamin C. A white light has pointed out an excess of flaxseed oil could result in the overproduction of bad eicosanoids. Excess flaxseed oil could also inhibit the delta 6 desaturase enzyme required for the production of good eicosanoids. In small doses flaxseed oil could increase the production of good eicosanoids by supplying the basic building blocks for all eicosanoid production. I think Dr Sears recommends a limit of one tablespoon of flaxseed oil a day. Some writers recommend grinding your own flaxseed to avoid spoiling of the oil which can, in theory, oxidize rapidly. Fish oil is preferable because fish oil contains EPA which inhibits the delta 5 desaturase enzyme which leads to the production of bad eicosanoids. The EPA in fish oil is also the major building block of good eicosanoids. Flaxseed oil requires a few more steps and can become good or bad eicosanoids. I should point out that doses of vitamin C (preferably with bioflavinoids) to bowel tolerance could be worth trying with herpes and particularly cold sores. I know several people who have found this approach very effective, particularly if the vitamin C is taken very aggressively at the first onset of very minor symptoms. I hope this helps. Kindest regards, Andrew Cavanagh

[quote:be060438f6="alan"] GIVEN THAT I've heard good things re flax oil's effect on herpes- and nothing similar re fish oil- (in fact, there seem to be some potentially serious side effects with fish oil discussed in this forum)- I wonder why EXACTLY flax oil gets second class treatment in the Zone, at best- and gets treated as an illegal alien in earlier writings. [/quote:be060438f6] ALA (ie, found in flax) is a short-chain omega-3 that ultimately gets desaturated (addition of double bonds) and elongated (addition of carbon atoms) to the long-chain omega-3 EPA (ie found in fish oil). Since the benefits of EPA result from its inhibition of the enzyme(D5D) that converts DGLA (precursor of series-1 eicosanoids) to AA (precursor to series-2 eicosanoids), both short-chain and long-chain omegas-3 can be beneficial. The problem with short-chain omega-3s is that it needs to go through a variety of steps to ultimately become EPA and hence receive its benefits. The enzyme activity needed to convert short-chain to long-chain can be suppressed for a number of reasons (age, viral infection, trans-fats) thus incorporating long-chain omega-3s directly gives you the greatest benefit. I’d be interested in seeing the cite from Sears earlier work on ALA. There was discussion on its acting as a “wet blanket” on the enzyme needed to desaturate LA to GLA which can inhibit the production of good eicosanoids (both LA(n-6) and ALA(n-3) use the enzyme D6D for desaturation), but too much long-chain EPA can also suppress D6D activity. One interesting choice of omega-3 would be stearidonic acid. It’s a precursor to EPA, but comes after the desaturation of ALA. Thus for those with an aversion to anything fishy, it may be a useful alternative to incorporate omega-3s without compromising the D6D activity needed to produce GLA. Studies showing anti-viral properties with ALA is not surprising. One series-1 eicosanoid has strong anti-viral properties (PGA1). Thus the addition of omega-3s which inhibit AA and increase PGA1 would produce this benefit. Conti G, et al “Inhibition by prostaglandin PGA1 on the multiplication of influenza virus is a dose-dependent effect” Virus Res. 2001 May;75(1):43-57 Superti F, et al “Inhibition of rotavirus replication by prostaglandin A: evidence for a block of virus maturation” Journal of Infectious Diseases 1998 Aug;178(2):564-8 Conti C, et al “Inhibition of poliovirus replication by prostaglandin A and J in human cells” Antimicrob Agents Chemother. 1996 Feb;40(2):367-72

Thank you Andrew and Scott for your great information. You are right that the passage I referred to attacked ALA for wiping out an important enzyme- but I don't remember anything about "excess ALA" being mentioned. Another writer said 2 g of flax oil capsules stopped his herpes symptoms (and I will be grinding my own). Scott, your citations about ALA's anti-viral properties are amazing. My symptoms are well controlled with 5-10 GRAMS of lysine almost every day- but I don't like what it does to my arginine levels, if you know what I mean, and I think you do. My symptoms used to be well-controlled with 900mg alpha-lipoic acid- but that stopped working after about 2-3 years and so I'm back on lysine. Haven't tried Vitamin C to bowel tolerance, but I've had herpes for many years, so I don't know. I will try as much flax oil as I need to say goodbye to lysine. If that works, I'll add fish oil (Dr. Sears' stuff) and see what effect it has. If the flax oil can replace the lysine, though- I'll be very happy, and everything else is gravy (I think).

[quote:25a86e80b3="alan"]Thank you Andrew and Scott for your great information.[/quote:25a86e80b3] You are welcome. [quote:25a86e80b3]Scott, your citations about ALA's anti-viral properties are amazing. [/quote:25a86e80b3] Keep in mind that the studies I referenced were not specific to ALA but rather the properties of a specific eicosanoid derived from omega-6 fatty-acids. The use of omega-3s increases the production of eicosanoids having such anti-viral characteristics. Keep us posted on your results.

Thanks for the clarification, Scott. So, would fish oil's Omega 3 (GLA) be just as likely to produce the anti-viral ecosonoid as flax oil's Omega 3 (ALA)- or is flax's ALA better for this purpose? And does it follow from your message that Omega 6 would have even a stronger anti-viral effect? And if so, what's the best source of Omega 6?

[quote:402b2ef6b9="alan"]Thanks for the clarification, Scott. So, would fish oil's Omega 3 (GLA) be just as likely to produce the anti-viral ecosonoid as flax oil's Omega 3 (ALA)- or is flax's ALA better for this purpose? [/quote:402b2ef6b9] Yes, direct sources of EPA are better than the shorter-chain ALA. Both ALA and Fish Oil (which is EPA and DHA, not GLA) are Omega-3 fatty acids. ALA is the parent omega-3 and is short-chain. EPA is long-chain. EPA is the fatty acid that would increase the production of series 1 eicosanoids that have anti-viral activity. You can get it indirectly from ALA (which must be converted to longer-chain EPA) or from EPA directly (ie fish oil). Thus direct sources of the long-chain EPA would provide greater benefits than short chain ALA. [quote:402b2ef6b9]And does it follow from your message that Omega 6 would have even a stronger anti-viral effect? And if so, what's the best source of Omega 6?[/quote:402b2ef6b9] The parent Omega-6 fatty acid is linoleic acid (LA). It gets desaturated to GLA and elongated to DGLA which is the precursor to the series-1 eicosanoids such as PGE1 and PGA1. However, too much can "spillover" to arachidonic acid (AA) which is the precursor to series-2 eicosanoids which are pro-inflammatory. That is where the omega-3s come in. They inhibit the conversion of DGLA to AA, keeping the balance of series-1 and series-2 eicosanoids in check. Thus, more is not always better when it comes to omega-6. Sears position is that slow-cooked oatmeal a couple times per week (which contains trace GLA) is usually enough, but some need more, others less. It is a highly individual exercise to determine the GLA and EPA requirements that gives rise to the best overall eicosanoid balance.

Thanks, Scott. So to the extent that flax oil helps in the treatment of herpes, fish oil should work at least as well- do you agree?

[quote:8f1539115b]ALA may be either good OR bad for you. Dose is crucial. Where 50MG ALA in a low omega 3 environment would certainly be good for you 1000MG would be bad for you. ANY surplus is used to produce bad eicosanoids. [/quote:8f1539115b] White LIght and others: Do you know how much ALA is in a tablespoon of whole flax seeds? I never consume flax oil. But I think ground flax has a lot of health benefits. It's lignans and phyto estrogens can help prevent various cancers. Thus, I grind a tablespoon of flax daily and mix it with oatmeal or other foods. Does anyone have any opinion regarding the benefits of flaxmeal? Thanks! Rosebud

Hi Rosebud [quote:8da37373fb="rosebud101"][quote:8da37373fb]ALA may be either good OR bad for you. Dose is crucial. Where 50MG ALA in a low omega 3 environment would certainly be good for you 1000MG would be bad for you. ANY surplus is used to produce bad eicosanoids. [/quote:8da37373fb] White LIght and others: Do you know how much ALA is in a tablespoon of whole flax seeds? I never consume flax oil. But I think ground flax has a lot of health benefits. It's lignans and phyto estrogens can help prevent various cancers. Thus, I grind a tablespoon of flax daily and mix it with oatmeal or other foods. Does anyone have any opinion regarding the benefits of flaxmeal? Thanks! Rosebud[/quote:8da37373fb] According to the USDA database it contains about 4g of fat of which 2.175g is ALA White Light

I read that ground flaxseed is usually rancid when you buy it in the store. It's better to buy your own whole flax seed and grind it yourself. It's important that you grind it. If you don't, your body won't digest it and it will just pass through your system. Mike

In his 1995 book 'Enter the Zone', Dr. Sears wrote that ALA, which is found in high amounts in flax oil, acts as a "wet blanket" on the beneficial enzyme delta 6 desaturase- but didn't say how much was too much (p.123). He advised against flax oil on this basis. Given the other benefits of flax oil, If there are permissible levels of flax oil- taken in addition to fish oil- I'd like to know what they are.

Hi Alan, [quote:b89f57e41d="alan"]In his 1995 book 'Enter the Zone', Dr. Sears wrote that ALA, which is found in high amounts in flax oil, acts as a "wet blanket" on the beneficial enzyme delta 6 desaturase- but didn't say how much was too much (p.123). He advised against flax oil on this basis. Given the other benefits of flax oil, If there are permissible levels of flax oil- taken in addition to fish oil- I'd like to know what they are.[/quote:b89f57e41d] The current zone position is you can have 1 or 2 tablespoons a day. The Sears Certified consultant, Anne-Marie has posted many times here on the real benefits of thi.s Unfortuneatly the old forums are no longer searchable. If you search on www.zoneperfect.com you will see a lot of very useful information White Light

White Light, you are the man. Thanks again, Alan

[quote:1aef2a7ad2="alan"]Thanks, Scott. So to the extent that flax oil helps in the treatment of herpes, fish oil should work at least as well- do you agree?[/quote:1aef2a7ad2] If the viral-suppression effects of ALA can be attributed to its omega-3 properties, I would agree.

Thanks very much Scott, Alan

[quote:6e0bb368e2]According to the USDA database it contains about 4g of fat of which 2.175g is ALA [/quote:6e0bb368e2] Does that mean 1 tablespoon of whole flax seeds a day is too much? I do eat fish regularaly and/or take fish oil on days I don't eat fish (usually sardines). And I only consume a small amount of GLA once a week. Incidentally, I agree that it's best to buy whole flax seeds and grind them. That's been my practice for years. Thanx, Rosebud

Hi Rosebud, [quote:87a23ac995="rosebud101"][quote:87a23ac995]According to the USDA database it contains about 4g of fat of which 2.175g is ALA [/quote:87a23ac995] Does that mean 1 tablespoon of whole flax seeds a day is too much? I do eat fish regularaly and/or take fish oil on days I don't eat fish (usually sardines). And I only consume a small amount of GLA once a week. Incidentally, I agree that it's best to buy whole flax seeds and grind them. That's been my practice for years. Thanx, Rosebud[/quote:87a23ac995] You can have 1 to 2 tablespoons so no 1 is not too much but yes you do need to take into account everything else you consume to make sure you do not eat too much fat White Light

Thank you White Light :P