Jackie and Brian: Regarding Pilates and upper body: Thanks Jackie, I will try Pilates for upper body too. I already work with weights for the arms both at gym and at home. Actually I'm quite strong but still have that stubborn tricep fat that women seem to get. Even when I was a lot thinner I had it. Help!!! :o [quote:b61780f83c]With regard to changing the appearance of a muscle or improving its functional characteristics, there is nothing special that Pilates can do other than strengthen it and make it more flexible, both of which can be achieved far more directly through other methods such as weight training, stretching, etc. [/quote:b61780f83c] Brian, are you saying that I won't getter shorter bulkier muscle doing weights than the long muscles that dancers have with different forms of exercise? I understand that we have our genetics but my muscle looked a lot different when I used to swim compared with weight lifting. Rosebud

[quote:c0bb807e63="rosebud101"]Jackie and Brian: Brian, are you saying that I won't getter shorter bulkier muscle doing weights than the long muscles that dancers have with different forms of exercise? I understand that we have our genetics but my muscle looked a lot different when I used to swim compared with weight lifting. [/quote:c0bb807e63] Weight training definitely won't make your muscles shorter, but it will make them larger, hence making them wider relative to their length. Don't be turned off though; you'd have to gain a lot of muscle before you appeared "bulky". As for dancers having "long" muscles, I doubt that their muscles are actually any longer than the average person's... you might be confusing this with their lean appearance.

Brian won't say it, but I will. Read this article, rosebud: Go to [url]http://www.superslow.com/main.html&...;/url] and click on "Why Not Pilates?"

That article is terrible. Brenda Hutchins is not a scientist and has no business writing such an analysis. This article is much better, although it may appear a bit technical: http://www.dolfzine.com/page95.htm

Enjoyed that article a lot. It also convinces me of why I like the mat exercises so much. C.

Regarding Pilates vs other forms of exercise, I have never done Pilates so I can't respond to its effect on my body. I do agree that everyone has a genetic predisposition to exercises that work for them. I.E., I have a swimmers body in that only a modest amount of swimming drastically resculpts my body. It takes much longer for weights to produce the same effect. The only problem is swimming tends to preserve fat so I have to already be at a low fat percentage. Regarding super slow, there seems to be mixed results in studies: http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/sup...ining.html Personallly I have tried variations of super slow by doing single sets very slowly at maximum weight. Obviously I may not be doing it correctly in that I have not had a trainer and have not given this process lots of time. However, I never felt the muscle fatigue or muscle build up that I lfeel more from doing double sets while weight training 3x a week. And in any case my problem isn't how much muscle I build over X period of time. I need to burn fat and so far I'm building muscle faster than burning fat. And I've been weight traiing for years. Therefore, I feel I need to add more cardio. If you can convince me otherwise, I'm open. Here's an article describing body types and how to divide weights and cardio that I found helpful. As you will see there are body types that should have very little cardio if muscle gain is the goal. However, endomorphs may need more cardio along with their weight training:. http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/betteru23.htm I'm about 10 pounds more than I want to be. Although I'm not obese, I do think I'm an endomorph. I gain fat easily and have to work like hell to get it off. Thus, I''ve recently started doing cardio 5 to 6 times a week in addition to weight training 3 X a week. Rosebud

Hi Brian. No offense taken. However, I do respectfully disagree with you. We are all genetically born with our muscles, and you are correct in saying that they won't get longer (or shorter). When you do Pilates, you are stretching the muscle which will give it a very long and lean appearance. That is why dancers love Pilates. Check out this pilates site: http://www.pilatesinsight.com/pilat...s-faq.aspx They can explain the benefits of Pilates much more eloquently than I can. However, I have found that the two biggest benefits I have derived from pilates is: 1. Develops a strong core Building on the principles of Joseph Pilates Contrology, Pilates develops a strong “core,” or center of the body. The core consists of the deep abdominal muscles along with the muscles closest to the spine. Pilates exercises develop core control, integrating the trunk, pelvis and shoulder girdle. 2. Builds long muscles and flexible joints Conventional workouts tend to build short, bulky muscles - the type most prone to injury. Pilates elongates and strengthens, developing muscle elasticity and joint mobility. A body with balanced strength and flexibility is less likely to be injured. I have this information from my Pilates study guides and text, not on the internet or I would post a link. I would be glad to send some copies to you to read, if you like, to back up my case. I'm not making this up, the followers of Joseph Pilates have been saying this for years.

Hey Rosebud and crew, I'm new here and just got caught up on this thread. Anyway, I just have a few comments. First, that's great that you lift weights and even better that you lift heavy ones. Some things that I have done when I have felt like my body has plateaued (weight- and muscle-development-wise.) 1. Learn some new exercises. Even something that seems almost like what you are doing already can make a difference. I occassionally find new exercises in health mags. Some stuff doesn't work, but some stuff does and also makes working ut a bit more fun. 2. The thing that really affected my weight training the most has been switchng from machines to mainly free-weights (actually, I switch between the two as necessary due to travel etc.) I started doing this about 3-4 yrs ago and it has really helped me. The supporting muscles that are engaged with free weights make it just a little bit harder and also result in your body being more balanced. 3. This sounds weird, but for me, the trick to looking "cut" (not that I'm a beef-girl or anything) has been to actually cut down on cardio. I find 20-30 min of elliptical/intervals 3-4x week works better than the intense (3 miles, 7.5 minute miles or long runs 6-7miles at slower pace) workouts I used to do. I should add that I am fairly active anyway. When I overdo it, I feel flabbier. I really like pilates and incorporate thier exercises in my ab training. As for the debate going on here, I think it's just a matter of semantics! Pilates does tone muscles and really stretches them resulting in increased flexiblility. It cannot truly lengthen muscles for the reasons stated by BrianG but I think fitness lingo has (incorrectly) equated lengthening with stretching. Hope this helps! I am constantly battling with my lack of flexibility (my weakest part of my fitness! I hate it!) and after a pilates mat session I can see a marked increase in my flexibility. It makes me "feel" longer even though I know I have only warmed and stretched the muscles.

cvc3,, Regarding cardio: [quote:0952de9673]This sounds weird, but for me, the trick to looking "cut" (not that I'm a beef-girl or anything) has been to actually cut down on cardio. I find 20-30 min of elliptical/intervals 3-4x week works better than the intense (3 miles, 7.5 minute miles or long runs 6-7miles at slower pace) workouts I used to do. I should add that I am fairly active anyway. When I overdo it, I feel flabbier. [/quote:0952de9673] Have you ever considered stopping all cardio for a while to see if you even get more cut quicker and to see how you feel without it? I just started increasing my cardio to 5 - 6 days a week from 3 days a week because of the endomorph body type theoretically needing more cardio than other types. (see my prior post). It's too early for me to tell whether this will work. However after reading your post and others, I'm getting confused. I have read some articles today about how cardio works against muscle growth and also wears out joints, etc. So I'm considering a circuit training approach - weights with very little rest between sets. Perhaps that's the best of both worlds. . . the benefits of cardio and weights all rolled into one. Or is that a cop out? I did my own version of circuit training a few years ago and it seemed to work. Rosebud

[quote:d60d7b500a="rosebud101"]Jackie and Brian: Regarding Pilates and upper body: Thanks Jackie, I will try Pilates for upper body too. I already work with weights for the arms both at gym and at home. Actually I'm quite strong but still have that stubborn tricep fat that women seem to get. Even when I was a lot thinner I had it. Help!!! :o Rosebud[/quote:d60d7b500a] Hi, I don't know your body fat %, but my experience has been than when I got to my ideal body fat %, my two troublesome area where I tend to deposit the fat disappeared. I've since read that the first fat put on is usually the last off. This may be helpful to know regarding your "tricep fat". BTW, I get a great upper body workout (along with full body and core strengthening) from Pilates. I have tubes and this little attachment that you close into a door which holds the tubes in position simulating the reformer machine (gives resistance to both arms and legs). Works great and you can do it anywhere. I also incorporate an exercise ball into my Pilates workout. Sue

Rosebud- I have gone without gym-based cardio for a few weeks at a time (due to travel etc) but have always found time at least to walk etc. I wouldn't give up cardio completely because I know getting my heart rate up is good for me and fitness is about that. I eat well (I read the zone books about 4 years ago and try to eat that way 80% of the time) and I really believe that diet is more important than exercise, when it comes to how "fat" I am. Exercise is important for me to look toned and feel healthy/energetic though. About 5 years ago (I was vegetarian, eating way too many carbs) I would do cardio (running) ~45-60min/day = ~6miles, 6 days a week. That totally didn't work for me and I pudged out! I think it was more diet than anything else though. Still, it shows that exercise is only a small factor. Once I became aware of carbs and added protein (for me, that meant adding meat again, although I know vegetarians can get enough protein too) and started lifting heavy weights, I "fixed" myself. Circuit training = OK to do once in a while but don't you use lower weights then? If you can do it with the usual heavy weights than that would be OK. In general though, I think circuit training isn't going to get you anywhere fast! I mean, I've been a member of many gyms and I've ever sen anyone merge from the circuit room and thought "wow, they look awesome!" Right?! You know, there is a column in the washingtonpost.com by weight/fitness buff Marty Gallagher (weight-lifting award winner/coach) that you can read achives of (it's an online chat where average joes write in with fitness questions.) You should check out that. I find it helpful and all kinds of people write in, with varying fitness goals. He gives really specific answers and that's where I got my idea to cut down on my cardio a bit. Hope this helps!

Hi Sue: [quote:3dccd539f0]BTW, I get a great upper body workout (along with full body and core strengthening) from Pilates. I have tubes and this little attachment that you close into a door which holds the tubes in position simulating the reformer machine (gives resistance to both arms and legs). Works great and you can do it anywhere. I also incorporate an exercise ball into my Pilates workout. [/quote:3dccd539f0] Those tubes sound great. Where do you get the tubes/door attachment? What is it called? Thanks for your response about fat loss too! I'm working off the fat slowly but surely. I only have 10 lbs to lose. I sure hope they come off the arms. Rosebud

Cvc3 [quote:dd8053883e]I have gone without gym-based cardio for a few weeks at a time (due to travel etc) but have always found time at least to walk etc. I wouldn't give up cardio completely because I know getting my heart rate up is good for me and fitness is about that. [/quote:dd8053883e] I agree that cardio has some benefit. Actually what I have been doing the past week is separating my weight training from cardio. I do cardio as soon as I wake up on an empty stomach to get into fat burning mode right away and try to stay within the 70 - 80% fat burning range so that I don't work against the muscle building that I do three times a week at night. This affords me a whole hour of weight training at night and I get the bonus of producing growth hormone when I need it (before bed time). [quote:dd8053883e]Circuit training = OK to do once in a while but don't you use lower weights then? If you can do it with the usual heavy weights than that would be OK. In general though, I think circuit training isn't going to get you anywhere fast! I mean, I've been a member of many gyms and I've ever sen anyone merge from the circuit room and thought "wow, they look awesome!" Right?! [/quote:dd8053883e] What I mean by circuit training is doing the same sets I usually do (heavy enough to do 10 - 12 reps + 2 sets) without waiting between sets by working opposing muscles. In order to make this work I have to go to the gym after 9 pm when the machines aren't tied up. [quote:dd8053883e]You know, there is a column in the washingtonpost.com by weight/fitness buff Marty Gallagher (weight-lifting award winner/coach) that you can read achives of (it's an online chat where average joes write in with fitness questions.) You should check out that. I find it helpful and all kinds of people write in, with varying fitness goals. He gives really specific answers and that's where I got my idea to cut down on my cardio a bit. [/quote:dd8053883e] I'll check out Marty Gallagher. Thanks so much!! Idelle aka Rosebud

The kind of circuit training you are talking about would probably be a good way to challenge your muscles in a new way. When I hear "circuit training" I think of those rooms that have weight machines set up next to cardio machnes and people dash from one place to the next doing small weights and short cardio bursts like frenzied rabbits. One workout I do to alleviate boredom sometimes (and especially when I'm pressed for time) is to do decreasing stack sets with minimal rest between sets. For example, I do a set with my normal workout weight, do about 8-10 reps, then decrease the weight by about 20%, rest only <30sec, do as many reps as I can (up to 8-10) then decrease again/do reps, then decrease again/do reps. It's amazing how at the end, something like a 20# weight can seem SO heavy! This seems to really help me build muscle and makes for a really fast workout since there are no breaks. It's exhausting though! :? Let me know what works for you and if you have any ther ideas. Oh one other thing, do you do any pull ups or dips? Doing those exercises made a huge difference to me.

[quote:69e302e625]One workout I do to alleviate boredom sometimes (and especially when I'm pressed for time) is to do decreasing stack sets with minimal rest between sets. For example, I do a set with my normal workout weight, do about 8-10 reps, then decrease the weight by about 20%, rest only <30sec, do as many reps as I can (up to 8-10) then decrease again/do reps, then decrease again/do reps. It's amazing how at the end, something like a 20# weight can seem SO heavy! This seems to really help me build muscle and makes for a really fast workout since there are no breaks. It's exhausting though! [/quote:69e302e625] That's an interesting way to work out and I have read about it before. Do you feel you get as good a work out as doing the conventional 2 to 3 sets at higher weights? [quote:69e302e625]Oh one other thing, do you do any pull ups or dips? Doing those exercises made a huge difference to me[/quote:69e302e625]. Yes I do pull ups and dips on a Nautilis assisted machine. I don't do them every work out that I work upper body because I try to vary my workouts to maximize my muscle response. [quote:69e302e625]Let me know what works for you and if you have any ther ideas. [/quote:69e302e625] The best thing that has been working for me the past week (I think I mentioned this before) is to separate my cardio and resistance work outs as follows: I do low intensity cardio (try not to go above 70 - 80%) in the a.m. before I eat anything. I just dance around my home to music videos. It's fun. :lol: This is the best time of day for fat burning because you don't need to spend an extra 20 min to burn off carbs before fat burning. This a.m. work out gives me amazing energy and decreases my hunger during the day. It also helps burn off the lactic acid I get from the night before of weight training. When I used to do cardio during the afternoon or at night, it made me ravenous instead and cancelled out the benefit. I do my resistance training at night. This seems like the most logical time to train since we produce growth hormone at night. By separating the workouts in this way, I am now able to devote an hour to weight training on three sessions a week - rather than shortening my weight training so that I can follow with cardio. I have already lost a couple of pounds without any change in diet and I have more energy. Much of this I realize you already know but for me it resolves the controversy going on between the pros and cons of cardio reducing the benefits of weight training. Take care, Idelle

sorry for being off the forum so long - holidays etc... :? anyway, to reply to previous post, rosebud... stacked set exercises are really tiring. usually i can only do a few muscle groups. (rather than doing say, my entire upper body.) for me, it seems to make me "feel" my workout the next day so i guess it is challenging to my muscles and stirs things up a bit. have you tried ding pullups/dips without assistance before you use the machine. i find that's a great way to gauge my strength. i started out just doing a few without assistance and now i can do 6-8 pull ups and 20-25 dips. when i miss a few times at the gym, i can't do as many reps so those exercises kind of spur me to get to the gym. that's good that you can split your workouts. i do best with one workout a day (mainly because i abhor a.m. exercise and it makes me feel crabby all day! oh well, different strokes...) and i try to go to the gym most days (easy b/c i live next door to my gym) for shorter times. my new years resolution is to work on my flexiblilty. i am the most unflexible person around and my ego doesn't like being in yoga/mat pilates classes. i am going to have to get over that though and go to a class to learn how to stretch better. (i am pretty athletic and a perfectionist, and nothing is worse to me that being in a beginner yoga class with some behemoth out-of-shape people who kick my a** at stretching! i hate it! :x i'll never be super flexible, i know, but i really need to improve a bit to avoid injury etc. ok, happy new year!

Cvc3 I agree about splitting work outs, however I'm experimenting again. . . this time with SuperSlow (see my post on [i:f6373f9792]Power of Ten[/i:f6373f9792]). I do have trepidations regarding SS which were reflected in my post. However I'm game for anything that reduces my time at the gym. I would prefer to do weights twice a week and do [i:f6373f9792]moderate [/i:f6373f9792]cardio on the side. I also incorporate a little yoga for flexibility. You stated: [quote:f6373f9792]i am pretty athletic and a perfectionist, and nothing is worse to me that being in a beginner yoga class with some behemoth out-of-shape people who kick my a** at stretching! i hate it! [/quote:f6373f9792] I have found one way to get around the embarrasment of others watching me. Okay, this will sound dorky :? There is a new digital TV station called [i:f6373f9792]Fit TV[/i:f6373f9792] that has yoga classes, cardio, etc. And the shows are actually pretty good. I have been supplementing my new SS routine with a few TV work outs again. Don't laugh :lol: Regarding Super Slow, I think Brian and Adam will get down on me when I tell them how I do Super Slow. In no way can I just use 6 - 7 machines and get all the muscles I normally work out. So I work out for an hour using about 12 - 13 exercises. So far, I've been going every 5 days. I've only done two work outs. But I do like the idea of working my whole body and thus I'm not tied to a rigid schedule since SS is often performed just once a week. Take care, Rosebud

Rosebud, you're not doing real SS if you are doing all those exercises and working out for an hour. If you do a proper SS exercise you _can't_ do more than 5 or 6 exercises. After I do leg presses, 4-6 reps, and then holding position for 10 seconds at the sticking point I have to be very careful for a minute or two to keep my legs from collapsing and dumping me on the floor. In addition to that I do a rowing exercise, pectoral press, overhead pulldown and overhead press, the same way. When I leave after 20-25 minutes my whole body is trembling. I feel the fatigue in my arms when lift a water bottle to my mouth for a drink. If I have skipped the one block before working out I often feel a little dizzy. At this point I workout every two weeks, am 3X as strong as when I started (weight used to workout) and still gaining strength slowly, tho' I consider what I'm doing to be maintenance, i.e. I do the same weights each time rather than adding weight to every exercise every workout. Read the stuff at http://www.ultimate-exercise.com and buy McGuffs little book. Don't worry about wasting your time. If you do it properly you will experience great gains. One has to be very strict with one's self and not do any really strenuous stuff in between. Many people who have been working out for a while are so addicted to exercise that they find doing proper SS to be impossible for more than a month or so. By that time they have achieved gains, but are undergoing extreme workout withdrawal, and many drop by the wayside and go back to multi-set normal training with cessation of improvement. (Yeah, I'm and old guy, 65, but I've trained 20 somethings and they get even faster results than us old folks.)

Dave, You wrote: [quote:f99bceffa0]Rosebud, you're not doing real SS if you are doing all those exercises and working out for an hour. If you do a proper SS exercise you _can't_ do more than 5 or 6 exercises. After I do leg presses, 4-6 reps, and then holding position for 10 seconds at the sticking point I have to be very careful for a minute or two to keep my legs from collapsing and dumping me on the floor. In addition to that I do a rowing exercise, pectoral press, overhead pulldown and overhead press, [/quote:f99bceffa0] My problem is that I have exercises I feel I need to do that won't work all the muscles in 5 or 6 exercises. Of course I could divide my sessions into two and thus work the same muscles every other week - - well, actually, since I'm new at this I feel recovery by the 5th day. So for now, I would be working the same muscles every 10 days. And my muscles really do feel the burn - perhaps I'm not dragging out the door like you, but my muscles are so sore that like I said I couldn't possibly go back and exercise before 5 days - and in theory I could wait longer before total recovery. Do you think I could divide my SS work out into two work outs thereby only repeating the same muscle groups every ten to eleven days for now and every 14 days once I've built up strength? I've only worked out twice and am still trying to calculate the best weights to use before failure. I reach failure on between 4 and 8 reps depending on the exercise. These are my exercises: For my legs, I like to do inner and outer thighs in addition to quads and hamstrings. And I duplicate the quads with leg extension to protect my knees: Thus, legs exercises are: 1.leg press 2. Hip ABduction 3. Hip ADduction 4. leg extension For my upper body: 1. Lat pullover or compound or lat pulldown (for lats) 2. Incline or upright chest press (for front pectorals) 3. chest flye (for side pectorals) 3. shoulder press or lateral raise or dip machine (for shoulders) 4. rear deltoid machine ( I like to isolate rear deltoids even though they are partially worked on other machines because I want to focus on posture) 5. bicep curl 6. tricep extension 7. erector machine (I'm not sure the name but it strengthens lower back and I have to work on lower back problems) So as you see by the above (which doesn't even include abdominal work), that I'm way over 5 to 6 exercises. I'm puzzled how one can eliminate so many exercises that focus on different muscles by only working 5 to 6 machines - - even if you do work some compound muscles secondarily. [quote:f99bceffa0]At this point I workout every two weeks,[/quote:f99bceffa0] Do you do any other exercises/activities/recreation between work outs? It seems that being totally sedentary between - even if muscles are actively recovering - it just seems like the body was meant to move if you know what I mean. The longest living people in the world do walk and ride bikes a lot - i.e., think Okinawa. Regarding SS muscle growth, do you not only see better muscle definition in yourself compared to when you trained traditionally - - but do you also see better muscle definition in those 20 year olds that you train? Based on my research, there have been no studies comparing traditional training and SS for non sedentary people. Whew :shock: I hope I haven't taken too much of your time! Rosebud

[quote:cdee8f103c="rosebud101"] These are my exercises: For my legs, I like to do inner and outer thighs in addition to quads and hamstrings. And I duplicate the quads with leg extension to protect my knees: Thus, legs exercises are: 1.leg press 2. Hip ABduction 3. Hip ADduction 4. leg extension For my upper body: 1. Lat pullover or compound or lat pulldown (for lats) 2. Incline or upright chest press (for front pectorals) 3. chest flye (for side pectorals) 3. shoulder press or lateral raise or dip machine (for shoulders) 4. rear deltoid machine ( I like to isolate rear deltoids even though they are partially worked on other machines because I want to focus on posture) 5. bicep curl 6. tricep extension 7. erector machine (I'm not sure the name but it strengthens lower back and I have to work on lower back problems) So as you see by the above (which doesn't even include abdominal work), that I'm way over 5 to 6 exercises. I'm puzzled how one can eliminate so many exercises that focus on different muscles by only working 5 to 6 machines - - even if you do work some compound muscles secondarily. [/quote:cdee8f103c] There is no such thing as a "compound muscle". A compound MOVEMENT combines several single-joint movements and (hence requires the use of multiple muscle groups) at once. You can easily train MOST of the muscle groups in the body (save for a few) in one session using 5-6 compound exercises. Just start with a lower body exercise that involves extension of both the hip and knee, and then pick at least one upper-body pushing exercise and at least one upper-body pulling exercise. For example: 1. Squat or leg press (glutes, hamstrings, quadriceps, spinal erectors, abdominals and hip abductors and adductors for stabilization) 2. bench press or pushup (pectorals, triceps, front deltoid) 3. pullup or pulldown (biceps, lats, posterior deltoid, scapular muscles) Now you have three other exercises left with which to do whatever you want; you could do more direct work for the abdominal or spinal erectors spinal erectors, or you could train your hip adductors and abductors or calves. So you see, 6 compound exercises is plenty to work with.

Dave. I have been out of town so I'm just getting back to you. You state; [quote:31f966260c]At this point I workout every two weeks, am 3X as strong as when I started (weight used to workout[/quote:31f966260c] I understand you are stronger but is your muscle definition/appearance better than when you performed traditional resistance training? And what about the people you train who already look reasonably fit. Do they look better after SS? And conversely, have you seen overweight clients who get in better shape, including losing fat, with SS? Do the overweight clients include cardio activity? And why don't you do any cardio? I understand the SS position. But I believe the body was meant to move - atleast walk every day. In most parts of the world where people live longest, they walk a lot. Think of Okinawa. Too much cardio at high intensity reduces immunity but moderate cardio increases immunity and longevity (from what I've read). If you get a chance, I'd love it if you look at my post in POWER OF TEN discussion. I posted several pieces of current research and discussions regarding SS vs. traditional training and the effects of concurrent training (weight training and cardio). I would like your opinion on these articles if you get the chance to read them. Thanks again, Rosebud

Rosebud, <I understand you are stronger but is your muscle definition/appearance better than when you performed traditional resistance training? And what about the people you train who already look reasonably fit. Do they look better after SS? And conversely, have you seen overweight clients who get in better shape, including losing fat, with SS? > Better than what? Better than they when they started, certainly, better than "tradional protocols", I think so, but my sample is too small to be anything but anecdotal. <Do the overweight clients include cardio activity?> some did, some didn't, personal preference. <And why don't you do any cardio?> I do, see below. <But I believe the body was meant to move - atleast walk every day. In most parts of the world where people live longest, they walk a lot.> I think it's good for the body to move, too, but I think saying it was "meant" to move is anthropomorphizing evolution.The correlation of long life with walking, or eating lots of fish, or whatever is not _necessarily_ cause and effect, that's a logical error that is often made. I think any exercise is better than none, healthwise, but steady state exercise for hours at a time, many times a week, probably not necessary and often results in joint wear/injury, especially with people who go to extremes. Thoughts regarding the study report at: <http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/sup...g.html> My first thought on reading the study was that they never read the SS information on the SS site and Doug McGuff's site. That's probably not true, but they didn't do what I think of as SS. They decided to have the SS workouts consist of 8 repetions which is 25-50% more than SS calls for, i.e. 4-6 repetitions. They don't mention whether anyone reached muscular failure in either type of exercise, which is a definitive goal of each SS exercise. They adjusted the weight downwards to allow their subjects to reach 8 reps, which seems backwards to me. The weight should have been adjusted, at the start, to whatever weight resulted in muscle faiure at 4-6 reps. The suggested initial trial workout weight fo SS is 70% of what one has been using in "traditional" muslti-set workouts. That's what I started with and found that I could do 4-5 reps at SS speed. When I was on an "increase" schedule I worked out once a week, and experienced either a rep increase or increased the weight, if I had completed 6 reps at the previous workout. At the point of muscle failure, McGuff recommends holding the weight at the failure point for 10 seconds before lowering it. I don't think this study did that either. My present once every two weeks schedule is a maintenance schedule. I have no idea if SS increases metabolism more than "traditional" protocols, or not. I don't really care. My advocacy of SS is for those whose goal is maximum increase in strength and size for _minimum_ time spent in the gym. My sample size of 6 students who used SS during my short time as a personal trainer, is not large enough to do anything except serve as a personal anecdote. That said, during the two years I spent as a personal trainer I never saw any other 6 people gain strength as fast as my students and I did in one one weekly workout of 20-25 minutes. My goal was (and is) to reach a strength level then, which would allow me to live a relatively "normal," active life when I'm in my 90's, allowing for an annual loss of strength of 3-5% a year as I age from my present 65 years. Regarding fat loss,I don't know if more muscle causes more caloric expenditure, but it seems as though it might. That wasn't my goal or that of any of my students. We all wanted to be stronger and didn't really care much whether we looked like body builders or not. I eat in the zone to loose fat. I was a biology major at Harvard and took college physics (and lots of biology courses) in the course of getting my degree, there. Physics will tell you that doing a weight movement slower or faster does not effect the amount of work done. It takes more Force to move (accelerate a weight to a higher speed) but the amount of Work done is the weight (mass) moved times the distance it's moved against the force of gravity. Despite the physics definition of work, my body is more exhausted (inroaded?) after a SS workout than it _ever_ was after a superset workout of several hours, each set to muscle failure. I spent _lots_ of hours in the gym, and didn't gain as much strength in a month(s) as I did spending less than half an hour a week at SS. Re. aerobics, I've always heard aerobic exercise defined, by aerobics instructors and advocates, as exercise which elevates your heartrate to 70-80% of max for your age and maintains that level for 20 minutes. SS most definitely does that for me. I also do "aerobic" exercise in between SS workouts in the form of sea kayaking once a week+ and walking a mile or two once or twice a week. I don't think anyone _needs_ to do more than SS to achieve or maintain a higher than 'normal' level of physical health, but then "normal" physical health is depressingly obese and weak. The percentage of people that can chin themselves once is dismal. I used to mind boggled by the number of people who wanted to take a Police Physical agility test who couldn't complet a couple of pull ups. Regarding the advocates of SS. I feel that many of them are SS's worst enemy. Strident advocacy will probably never convince skeptics to try SS. As far as I am concerned that is only way to convince most people that SS works. It is really, really hard to get people to try SS for more than a month or two, _especially_ if they have been working out for quie a while. Experienced exercisers get so hooked on working out they often find it impossible to give up the daily workout and take it easy all week, except for a short and very arduous 23 minute workout. To do SS properly requires great concentration and dedication. I have yet to communicat with anyone who has done SS for 90 days who does not admit that it works. Many go back to other protocols because they are more fun, but that doesn't negate the efficiency of the SS protocol. The key point that I try to get across to people who ask about SS is that it is very hard to do correctly, but that, in my admittedly limited experience, it gives the max amount of strength increase for the least amount of time spent exercising. I spent 40 years doing it the 'traditional' way, and I'll never go back to that, I'm just too lazy.

Dave, [quote:e6ff6c8066]The suggested initial trial workout weight fo SS is 70% of what one has been using in "traditional" muslti-set workouts.[/quote:e6ff6c8066] I've only done 4 SS work outs so far. I find that I do 70% with some exercises. But there are others, especially leg exercises, that I need to increase to 150% of the weight I normally use to only perform 4 - 6 reps to failure. [quote:e6ff6c8066]At the point of muscle failure, McGuff recommends holding the weight at the failure point for 10 seconds before lowering it. [/quote:e6ff6c8066] I not only hold the weight for 10 seconds at failure but I also perform the [i:e6ff6c8066]Power of Ten [/i:e6ff6c8066] approach of 10 seconds on both upward and downward movements (in contrast to SS of 10 sec up and 5 down. What do you do? [quote:e6ff6c8066] I think any exercise is better than none, healthwise, but steady state exercise for hours at a time, many times a week, probably not necessary and often results in joint wear/injury, especially with people who go to extremes.[/quote:e6ff6c8066] If you don't think steady state cardio is necessary for health, do you think I can get by with just performing SS once or twice a week and be relatively sedentary the rest of the time? I am a writer so I need to be prompted to move :lol: My other concern is that I have a high fasting glucose even though my fasting insulin is lower than normal (a wierd combo). I do not overdo carbs for that reason (eat a semi Zone like diet but do not get anal counting every single block). The bottom line is I do not want to become diabetic. I have read cardio helps lower fasting glucose (hmm or is it the insulin?). What is your opinion on this and do you think the SS done once a week is just as beneficial for controling blood sugar without adding cardio? Some longevity studies state (and I think Sears concurs with this) that we need to burn 1500 to 2000 calories a week for maximum health. [quote:e6ff6c8066]Re. aerobics, I've always heard aerobic exercise defined, by aerobics instructors and advocates, as exercise which elevates your heartrate to 70-80% of max for your age and maintains that level for 20 minutes. [/quote:e6ff6c8066] So, then again, I ask do you think elevating your heart rate to 70-80% with aerobics has a health benefit (beyond relieving stress and burning a few calories - I know that after one subtracts resting metabolism rate of burning calories, cardio does not burn that many calories). [quote:e6ff6c8066]Regarding fat loss,I don't know if more muscle causes more caloric expenditure, but it seems as though it might. [/quote:e6ff6c8066] I read in a study (can't remember where right now but will find it if you like) that more muscle growth did not increase metabolism as was expected. And more muscle mass did not result in more calories being burned during the day.[b:e6ff6c8066] But this is the surprising conclusion: 7% more calories were burned during sleep with added muscle mass. This resulted in about a 2 lb loss per year - not significant but interesting.[/b:e6ff6c8066] [quote:e6ff6c8066] I spent 40 years doing it the 'traditional' way, and I'll never go back to that, I'm just too lazy.[/quote:e6ff6c8066] Hey, I'll concur with you there. . . if I can be convinced that so little exercise will benefit me in the ways I mentioned above, I'll be a happy camper. I have lots of other interests. Exercise, like food, is only my vessel to healthfully pursue other passions and pursuits. After all, life is short. Thanks again for all your help, Rosebud aka Idelle

<I've only done 4 SS work outs so far. I find that I do 70% with some exercises. But there are others, especially leg exercises, that I need to increase to 150% of the weight I normally use to only perform 4 - 6 reps to failure.> This is really surprising to me as I found I couldn't do as much weight when I moved slowly. <I not only hold the weight for 10 seconds at failure but I also perform the [i]Power of Ten [/i] approach of 10 seconds on both upward and downward movements (in contrast to SS of 10 sec up and 5 down. What do you do?> I do 10 and 10. <If you don't think steady state cardio is necessary for health, do you think I can get by with just performing SS once or twice a week and be relatively sedentary the rest of the time?> Probably, that is what I do. If one wants to be able to trot right out there and cross country ski all day, or run a marathon, or paddle a kayak across Monterey Bay from Santa Cruz to Monterey, then one probably needs to do aerobic endurance exercise. My observations of people during my nearly 66 years of living leads me to believe that the major problem for aging people is weakness, not endurance. I see people in their 50's who have trouble getting up from a chair, not because of obesity, but because the just are weak from lack of exercise. As I said before I do walk and kayak, but I don't do it because I think I need to do aerobics, I do it because it feels good. < I am a writer so I need to be prompted to move> I'm dirt lazy, a computer junky, and I love to read so I'm not too different. I don't have enough knowledge in the area of blood sugar/insulin control to want to venture an opinion in this area. <So, then again, I ask do you think elevating your heart rate to 70-80% with aerobics has a health benefit (beyond relieving stress and burning a few calories - I know that after one subtracts resting metabolism rate of burning calories, cardio does not burn that many calories).> I think that SS gives you cardio benefit. Occasionally I have gone a month without kayaking and I haven't experienced any respiratory or fatigue problems with a 10 mile paddle in my kayak. On the other hand I don't kayak at 6 mph, I usually go between 3-4 mph (measured on my GPS) which quite relaxed for me. 5 mph is hard work and 6 is killer effort, not sustainable for more than a few minutes at a time. Nevertheless I walk and kayak for fun, anyway. <Hey, I'll concur with you there. . . if I can be convinced that so little exercise will benefit me in the ways I mentioned above, I'll be a happy camper. I have lots of other interests. Exercise, like food, is only my vessel to healthfully pursue other passions and pursuits. After all, life is short. > My advice is to do your own experiment. If you can stand to be idle most of the time, try it. Do SS once a week and nothing else for 3 months. If you find this doesn't impair your ability to do the things you like to do, fine. If you like to occasionally do something that stresses your ability breather comfortably then add some endurance training. I don't find that I have to do that very often. At worst you'll be better off than the average obese, weak person. (I don't have a very high opinion of the average person's strength or logical ability. I often say, "The average person is an idiot, that's why they are only average." It was meant as a joke, at first, but as I live longer and longer it appears more and more to be true.) I hope my input is helpful.

Hi Dave, This is just a quick response to thank you so much for all your feedback. I just got home from a SS work out and am tired as you can imagine. I will be pretty busy for a few days and will respond to your post after that when I'm awake and alert. In the mean time, keep kayaking and don't trim that beard :roll: yes I got a peak at you kayaking :wink: Idelle