Ok.

Sigh. I did it again. (Not quoting that famous singer--Britney?)

My stools, again, went unformed. Totally unformed.

As of today I have completely gone off ZFO or ... I forget the name. zone fish oil, without the gla.

Anyway. The next 5 days, no ZFO, then start slow.

QUESTIONS:

1. If I start eating salmon everyday, this comes in a very different form than the concentrated fish oil. Would it help in getting inflammation down during the 5 days that I can't have the ZFO? Are there any problems associated with this, given what happened--that my stools became unformed?

2. If I continue with salmon while on a small ZFO. Would that continue to help?

3. I'm exploring alternative ways to decrease inflammation overall. I'm gonna re-start yoga, for example. Meditate. Take certain spices like tumeric. Tumineric? I want to hear about the best ways to decrease inflamation while I'm undergoing this process of withdrawing from FO, and still needing to reduce inflammation for my allergies and congestion.

Thanks ...

Alexy

"Oops! I did it again" LOL (can't tell you how much that song irritates me LOL, my kids can sing it better than she can!)

Salmon is an excellent choice of protein to eat, no matter whether you are taking fish oil or not. It is almost impossible to eat enough salmon and get the same amount of EPA and DHA as you would in Zone fish oil. But, because salmon has very low levels of AA, this is a basically a very good protein to eat in terms of inflammation. I don't think that the amount of omega-3 will alter your stool much.

Of course, make sure your salmon is wild caught, and not farmed salmon. Wild caught salmon have very low levels of PCB because of being in the open ocean, while other fish/seafood may carry higher levels of PCB.
http://www.howmuchfish.com/

Yoga and meditation are great for stress relief and will help decrease inflammation brought on by stressors. Don't overdo any exercises!

Turmeric has natural anti-inflammatory properties.

And, obviously eating in the Zone is one of the major cornerstones for reducing inflammation, so the more you do with diet, the less you have to do with fish oil!

Hi Cranberrycat,

Yeah, that's the song. Boy, you really don't like that song, do you? Gee, I wonder why .. <BIG GRIN>

So, I'm not hearing that the salmon would make much of a difference because of the form it takes in, e.g., it is not a pure liquid distilled version, so it wouldn't affect the body the same way. Is that right? Or ...?????

I ate some smoked farmed salmon today ... I was out and away from home. And tomatoes to go with it. Problem is, I don't know what fat was used to cook the fish, so I don't think I'll repeat that experience again. Better to take a prepared with me whevere I go, even if I don't think I'll need it.

LOL! Re: don't overdo any exercises! :-)

Yeah ... I'm doing the best I know how, and ... maybe just add more various spices that are anti-inflammatory throughout my day, but I've never been able to find out whether, say, one tablespoon or two of tumeric (which my naturopathic doctor recommended to me for my fibro) would hurt me in terms of pesticides etc ... does anyone know of a reliable source of information on pesticides, etc., on regular spices, the bulk version that I get at the bulk barn?

Alexy

Re: salmon and omega-3, it is one of the best natural sources of omega-3, but it is not concentrated as it is in fish oil, and perhaps not the exact concentration of 2:1. If it were me, I would prefer eating salmon over taking fish oil, but I know that I can't eat enough of it to make that huge of an impact, so that is why I supplement.

If you are out and about, and enjoying salmon, you are always free to ask how it was prepared, if it is wild or farmed, etc. If the answers are unknown, then don't eat it. The link in my previous post discusses farm raised vs. wild (forgot to put down why I posted that link--lol).

Re: spices and pesticides, I don't have a source for you on that, I never really thought about it, so would be great if someone else has info on this.

ALSO, it might not be a problem where you are; BUT, be very careful.
Most all salmon in USA is farm-raised and not wild salmon.
Farm raised fish(as are most cattle (beef)) are fed grain and other undesirable stuff.
As a result, their Omega-6/Omega-3 ratio is so out of whack - that you would be doing a lot worse by eating farm-raised salmon.

so farmed salmon is high in omega-6s, generally speakingÉ How much soÉ

Thanks to the both of you! :-)

Alexy

Use the link that CranCat posted: howmuchfish.com
It does not show Omega-6's, but it does show how almost all nutrients are lower in farm-raised:
The fact that it is 33% higher in total fat and only slight difference in Omega-3's,
should give you a clue about Omega-6 in farm-raised.
.
Wild Salmon, 3 oz portion:
Omega-3s (EPA+DHA): 1.56 g (312.9% of daily need*)
Protein: 21.60 g (43.2% of RDI)
Vitamin B12: 2.70 mcg (43.2%)
Potassium: 534.00 mg (15.3%)
Selenium: 39.90 mcg (72.3%)
Iron: 0.87 mg (4.8%)
Fat: 6.90 g
Sodium: 48.00 mg
Calories: 155 (baked)
.
.
Farmed Salmon, 3 0z portion:
Omega-3s (EPA+DHA): 1.83 g (365.1% of daily need*)
Protein: 18.90 g (37.5% of RDI)
Vitamin B12: 2.40 mcg (39.6%)
Potassium: 327.00 mg (9.3%)
Selenium: 35.10 mcg (63.9%)
Iron: 0.30 mg (1.5%)
Fat: 10.50 g
Sodium: 51.99 mg
Calories: 175 (baked)
.

Here is another link that actually discusses the research and findings of Omega=3 and Omega-6 in wild vs. farmed salmon.
NOTE: I my previous post from HowMuchFish.com, it showed farm-raised as having slightly more Omega-3's.
However, as the discussion in this link shows, LESS Omega-3 is use-able in Farm-raised salmon (fish).
.
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?...ge&dbid=96
.
Here's the explanation:
Farm-raised Fish Provide Less Usable Omega-3 Fats

Farm-raised Fish are Fattier
In all three species (trout, catfish, salmon), the farm-raised fish were fattier. Not surprising since farm-raised fish do not spend their lives vigorously swimming through cold ocean waters or leaping up rocky streams. Marine couch potatoes, they circle lazily in crowded pens fattening up on pellets of fish chow.
.
Farm-raised Fish Provide Less Usable Omega-3 Fats
The reason for this apparent discrepancy is that both omega 3 and omega 6 fats use the same enzymes for conversion into the forms in which they are active in the body. The same elongase and desaturase enzymes that convert omega-3 fats into their beneficial anti-inflammatory forms (the series 3 prostaglandins and the less inflammatory thromboxanesand leukotriennes) also convert omega-6 fats into their pro-inflammatory forms (the series 2 prostaglandins and the pro-inflammatory thromboxanes and leukotrienes). So, when a food is eaten that contains high amounts of omega 6s in proportion to its content of omega 3s, the omega-6 fats use up the available conversion enzymes to produce pro-inflammatory compounds while preventing the manufacture of anti-inflammatory substances from omega-3s, even when these beneficial fats are present.
.
Farm-raised Fish Contain More Pro-inflammatory Omega-6 Fats
In all three types of fish, the amount of omega 6 fats was substantially higher in farm-raised compared to wild fish. Cultivated trout, in particular, had much higher levels of one type of omega 6 fat called linoleic acid than wild trout (14% in farm-raised compared to 5% in wild samples). The total of all types of omega 6 fats found in cultivated fish was twice the level found in the wild samples (14% vs 7%, respectively).
.
Wild Fish Provide More Omega-3 Fats
In all three species evaluated, the wild fish were found to have a higher proportion of omega-3 fats in comparison to omega 6 fats than the cultivated fish. The wild salmon were not only much lower in overall fat content, but also were found to have 33% more omega 3 fatty acids than their farm-raised counterparts. Omega 3s accounted for 29% of the fats in wild salmon versus 19% of the fats in cultivated salmon. Rainbow trout showed similar proportions in fatty acid content; wild trout contained approximately 33% more omega 3s than cultivated trout, however both cultivated and wild trout did have much lower amounts of omega 6 fats than the other types of fish.
.

And this .....
.
Are there any nutritional differences? I’m glad you asked! FDA statistics on the nutritional content (protein and fat-ratios) of farm versus wild salmon show that the fat content of farmed salmon is excessively high--30-35% by weight. Wild salmon have a 20% higher protein content and a 20% lower fat content than farm-raised salmon. Farm-raised fish contain much higher amounts of pro-inflammatory omega 6 fats and less usable omega 3 fats than wild fish. Normally, we tend to get too many omega 6’s in our diets and need more of the omega 3’s.

Balance is key, neither of the fats are “good” or “bad” but “variety” is what you should look for. When a food is eaten that contains high amounts of omega 6s in proportion to its content of omega 3s, the omega-6 fats use up certain enzymes which produce a pro-inflammatory condition.

Problem: Farm-raised fish do not spend their lives vigorously swimming through cold ocean waters or leaping up rocky streams. They spend their lives as “couch potatoes”, lazily circling in crowded pens fattening up on pellets of fish chow…neither the normal life nor feed of the wild variety. For example, farm-raised Coho salmon has been found to have approximately 2.7 times the total fat as wild samples.

Finally, while on the subject, Omega-3 vs. Omega-6 in grain-fed vs. grass fed meat:
.
Meat from grass-fed animals has two to four times more omega-3 fatty acids than meat from grain- fed animals. Omega-3s are called "good fats" because they play a vital role in every cell and system in your body. For example, of all the fats, they are the most heart-friendly. People who have ample amounts of omega-3s in their diet are less likely to have high blood pressure or an irregular heartbeat. Remarkably, they are 50 percent less likely to suffer a heart attack. (1) Omega-3s are essential for your brain as well. People with a diet rich in omega-3s are less likely to suffer from depression, schizophrenia, attention deficit disorder (hyperactivity), or Alzheimer's disease. (2)
.
Another benefit of omega-3s is that they may reduce your risk of cancer. In animal studies, these essential fats have slowed the growth of a wide array of cancers and also kept them from spreading.(3) Although the human research is in its infancy, researchers have shown that omega-3s can slow or even reverse the extreme weight loss that accompanies advanced cancer and also hasten recovery from surgery.(4) (5)

There are two types of Omega-3. Long chain Omega-3, the most healthful kind, comes from the meat and milk of animals that eat the leaves of green plants or, in the case of ocean fish, green plankton.(6) Short chain Omega-3 is found in certain nuts and seeds such as flaxseeds and walnuts. Omega-3s are formed in the chloroplasts of green leaves and algae. Sixty percent of the fatty acids in grass are omega-3s. When cattle are taken off omega-3 rich grass and shipped to a feedlot to be fattened on omega-3 poor grain, they begin losing their store of this beneficial fat. Each day that an animal spends in the feedlot, its supply of omega-3s is diminished.(7)
.
The main culprit behind the high omega-6 levels in farm-raised fish is apparently the corn-soy diet. Most wild fish eat greens (and/or other fish that eat greens), which is what produces omega-3s, as is the case with pasture-fed livestock. For those who eat fish as a way of controlling inflammatory diseases via an increase of omega-3 intake, farm-raised tilapia is not a good choice, according to the researchers.(10)
Farm raised salmon, however, do not have the same omega 3:6 profile as wild salmon. Farm-raised fish contain considerably higher levels, up to four times those of wild salmon, of omega 6 fatty acids.

Very helpful, thanks, john!

You're welcome.

Hi John - I looked up Omega 3 content of grass fed beef on nutritiondata.com. It may have 4 times as much Omega 3 as corn fed beef but it has very little. I think the claims about high omega 3 in grass fed beef are a misleading marketing message from grass fed suppliers. Of course there are lots of other good reasons to eat natural grass fed meat.

100g grass fed beef - 88 mg Omega 3 (and this is from a fatty serving. It's only 22 mg for lean meat)

100g wild salmon - 2586 mg Omega 3

100 gram farm raised salmon - 2260 mg of Omega 3


I also noticed that the Omega 6 is quite low for wild salmon (220 mg in a 100 g serving). 100 g of the fatty grass fed beef is 427 mg of Omega 3. Farm raised salmon is 666 mg.

Hey larry, we are actually in agreement. No one claims that grass-fed is high in Omega-3.
Just that it is higher in Omega-3 and lower in Omega-6 in grass-fed beef than its un-natural and mass=produced grain/corn fed beef.
Plus it has CLA. Grass-fed is as God (or nature as you believe) intended and as our ancestors ate which is also what Dr. sears started his basis for the Zone on, at least according to his early books on the Zone.

see below for reply from Dave re: omega-6s ...I asked him about the omega-6s in olive oil ... basically he's saying we actually need a lot of Omega-6s, BUT, Omega-6s are everywhere, wherein Omega-3s aren't, not really, so need to be careful with 6s ...

Sarah

Hello,



Congratulations on your success with the Zone!

It may seem like you’re consuming high amounts of omega 6’s when using olive oil, however, consider:

1) We do need some omega 6’s. See Dr. Sears’ article at http://drsears.com/ArticlePreview/t...fault.aspx

2) The amount of omega 6’s in other oils such as soybean oil. One teaspoon of soybean oil has 2,269mg. of omega 6’s (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts...ls/507/2), one tsp. of olive oil has 439mg. of omega 6’s (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fats-and-oils/509/2)

3) The ratio of omega 6:omega3 in the blood should ideally be 2:1 or even 1:1. Most Americans’ ratio is 20:1 or higher. Elevated levels of omega 6 will contribute to cellular inflammation, therefore, limit all omega 6’s

By following a program that’s lower in omega 6’s, controlling insulin (elevated insulin converts omega 6’s into toxic fat (arachidonic acid, AA) and supplementing with omega 3’s one should be able to lower their omega 6 to omega 3 ratio.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Dave

Zone Labs Customer Support

This does make sense to me.
It really isn't about the total amount of omega-6, but rather the ratio of omega-6 to omega-3. Therefore, if we are eating a lot of omega-6 and very little omega-3, then this is not a good thing. He pointed out that even with the presence of omega-6 in olive oil, there is a whole lot more in soybean oil.

You will get some good benefit from reducing omega-6, and then when you are able to add back the fish oil, you will really be doing a good thing!

This does make sense to me.
It really isn't about the total amount of omega-6, but rather the ratio of omega-6 to omega-3. Therefore, if we are eating a lot of omega-6 and very little omega-3, then this is not a good thing. He pointed out that even with the presence of omega-6 in olive oil, there is a whole lot more in soybean oil.

You will get some good benefit from reducing omega-6, and then when you are able to add back the fish oil, you will really be doing a good thing!

Sarah and Cranberry, take care not to misinterpret Dave's info. You will get all the omega 6 you need, which is actually very little, by closely following the Zone principles, which includes limiting all omega 6 intake, as Sarah quoted Dave as writing.

Sarah, to address the topic in the subject of this thread (increasing salmon intake during the time you eliminate Omega Rx to allow EPA to dissipate from your system), there would be no reason to try to get EPA from other sources in the iterim because the reason you stopped Omega RX is to give your EPA levels a little time to lower. If after considering that, you are still thinking about ingesting enough salmon to get appreciable amounts of EPA, keep in mind you'd have to eat more salmon in a single day than would be allowable in a Zone balanced diet in order to get that much EPA, plus you wouldn't want to eat that much salmon due to the toxins in today's oceans.

I got curious and added up the Omega 6 I ate today.

total g X Omega 6 per g =
olive oil 15 94 1410
almond butter fat 22 211 4642
soy product fat 5 403 2015
macadamia nut fat 55 17 935
avacado fat 8 115 920

Grand Total 9922 mg Omega 6

I hope the above table formats okay when I hit submit.

I have to eat extra fat in order to keep from becoming too skinny. I usually take all of the added fat in the form of macadamia nuts because the Omega 6 in them is so low.

So I had about 10g of omega 6 today. Some days I would have a little less because I have less almond butter and more avocado.

This means I need at least 5g of fish oil, right? Is that 8 capsules? I was taking 8 for about a month. I'm currently taking 12 capsules a day to try to reduce neck pain.

Larry, I don't think it is all as simple as that. Take a look at the link that was posted, the article that Dave suggested.

Sue, please re-read my post, I think you are misinterpreting the content of my post.

Hi Larry, the amount of fish oil you require is not dictated solely by the amount of omega 6 you ingest. There are other factors as well. One of those factors, which you have no control over, is the rate at which your body degenerates fish oil. Ever wonder why a person with ADD or ADHD needs a couple of tablespoons of Omega Rx every day? It's because their body breaks down fish oil very quickly. The bottom line, the AA/EPA test is the best tool for determining your fish oil dose.

Thanks, Sue. My intention was to provide my body with a small amount of necessary stuff while I go off the ZFO.

Because I wasn't actually having an overabundance of eicosanoids as far as I can see. I was reacting to the ZFO specifically---to the too-large molecules. I've been on another FO and was fine there. I also gained many different benefits from that particular FO. I was on a far higher dosage of that former FO--10 to 15 grams a day. (I know 15 grams is too high for me now ... whoops!)

I am going to start the ZFO again this Thursday after the 5 days off. My thought was to have the small amount--two salmon pieces a day--to maintain my health in the interim, and then as I start and increase my ZFO, I stop eating salmon.

No?

Alexy