In my onging effort for a speedy breakfast I tried something new yesterday. I took an ounce of raw steel cut oats stuck them in a coffee grinder and in a few seconds they became powder. Then I added a half cup of no sugar added applesauce and a bit of cinnamon. It tasted wonderful actually and I think it could be a daily breakfast for me as far as the carbs are concerned.

My question is since the way food is cooked(or in this case not cooked)can often have an effect on how or if our body absorbs and processes nutrients does anyone here know if raw steel cuts oats in powder form are favorable just like cooked steel cut oats?

I couldn't figure out why fast cookin oats are not favorable like the steel cut so I am hoping that even in a powder form the zone considers steel cut outs fine...

Any help would be much appreciated.

They are fine to eat uncooked. I assume you are buying good quality, not too old, pesticide free, etc?

I like them toasted before grinding. I find that they are a bit easier to digest for me that way and also taste better. I toasted them in a dry saute pan for 4 or 5 minutes on top of the stove. Gives them a nutty taste. I use them as I would nuts: in granola, in food bars, or ground and added to yougurt shakes. It does change them chemically (any type of cooking will do that - mostly making them more digestable by starting the physical and chemical breakdown). I am told, however, that there is not much measureable difference in calorie count or in glycemic index between ground up raw oats or cooked (by any method) oats. I can't believe there is NO difference but my nutritionist its not enough to worry about.

If you eat uncooked, unground WHOLE oats and to some degree steel cut oats , you will probably see them largley unprocessed in your stool and, in that case, I would say you are missing out on the nutrition - and probably most of the calories too! . But grinding (especially after toasting them) increases their bioavailablity.

Hope that helps.

I do buy the best i can find and since it's from a bulk bin at a store it is always fresh because they run out pretty often.

Toasting sounds like a great idea and should make them easier for your body to break down. i will try that for lunch right now as a matter of fact.

Thank you very much for the reply.

how many blocks would that be worth??? i dont have a coffe grinder what can i do???

Well i personally need 4 block meals so the 1 ounce of steel oats(2 blocks)plus the half cup of applesauce(2 blocks)is 4 total blocks of carbs. The cinnamon adds nothing but flavor.

Without a grinder i'm not sure what you can do but the mini grinders are easy to find everywhere these days and are very inexpensive so maybe just go pick one up?

If i have time today I want to use the same recipe and try making cookies...

oh well i need 3 block meals so yeah but i was planning to eat this as a lunch instead of breakfast.

tell me how it goes trying to make them into cookies!!

Hi Everyone!

Just a tip, by grinding oats into a powder (a coarse oat flour), you'd be make the oats unfavorable. The more a carbohydrate is processed, the more unfavorable it becomes.

Hmmm are you positive?

I e-mailed the zone about the question and Theoni Gray sent me this reply.

"Grinding steel cut oats into a powder will not increase the glycemic load of the oats so it is perfectly fine to do so."


So what exactly is makin them unfavorable?

I can't quite grasp how a few seconds in the grinder qualifies as MORE processed then 40 minutes of boiling in water.

Barry Sears wrote (in Zone books) that the more you process a food, the less favorable it becomes because the more processed it is the faster it digests and gets into the blood stream. My info is based on that.

The bottom line will be if it keeps your insulin in the Zone, demonstrated by lack of hunger at 4 hours after the meal.

That does make a lot of sense but I think simply grinding the steel cut oats isn't really truly processing the oats. I think when people refer to the "processing" of food in general it usually means cooking of some kind.

"Take into consideration the processing of rolled and steel cut oats. Both rolled oats and steel cut oats contain whole grain oats; however, the processing for these oats varies. Rolled oats are oats that are steamed, rolled, steamed and toasted. This produces oat flakes that have gone through considerable processing. Steel cut oats, on the other hand, simply consist of oat groats (the inside of an oat kernel) chopped into several pieces. This produces oat chunks instead of oat flakes. Steel cut oats undergo much less processing than rolled oats."

I don't THINK steel cut oats even in a powdered form can be digested any faster then steel oats soaked overnight then boiled especially since I'm eating them raw.

As far as hunger is concerned i have had none at all for over 5 hours after eating the meal I mentioned while stuck at work.

I am really curious about whether or not this is truly favorable because it can easy become a staple of my everyday life and if it isn't favorable i don't want to start a habit i can't easily break.

Thanks Sue for taking time to reply, your insight is very much appreciated.

Hi related to the above thread about oats....are these type of oats suitable? http://www.britishcornershop.co.uk/...id=SGN1472

I am abroad and have to buy them from the UK. But I have never got these...Im pretty sure the jumbo oats are unprocessed can anyone confirm?

Thanks Andy

I'm not sure about the 'Jumbo' oats but I know Flahavan makes the steel cut - they just call them 'Pinhead' oats. I've got them in my press at home. I'm in Ireland but I imagine that if they're readily available at grocery stores and health food stores (we have them in the Health Store here) that you should be able to get them in Britain.

A quick search found these: http://www.goodnessdirect.co.uk/cgi...-Oats.html

Pinhead oats are halfway down the page! :-)

Hope that helps a bit.

<div class='NTForums_Quote'>Posted By andrew on 11/06/2008 2:24 AM

Hi related to the above thread about oats....are these type of oats suitable? http://www.britishcornershop.co.uk/...id=SGN1472


</div>

Hi Andy!

Flahavan's website describes those as flakes, which would be unfavorable carb.

You're welcome Rah!

Incidentally, some interesting info, in "Mastesing the Zone" Barry Sears specifically states that the more a food is "processed or cooked" (distinctly stating both, as I interpret it), the faster it will enter the blood stream.

From the email the zone people sent me...

"Cooking carbohydrates breaks down the fiber in plant material which increases the glycemic load. Grinding does not have the same effect."

I believe what you stated would apply to a lot of foods but I would think oats inparticular couldn't possibly enter the blood stream too fast cause it's such a dense carb especially in a completely uncooked form.

As I mentioned earlier it all comes down whether one is able to maintain insulin in the Zone, which will differ among individuals.

Is the best way to judge that is just by whether or not i'm hungry 4 hours later? No other obvious factors i can use to gauge the effect?

Yes, lack of hunger 4 hours after a meal, mental clarity and good energy levels. It can also be measured by the fastign insulin blood test (not to be confused with fasting blood glucose). A reading of 5 to 10 means you're successfully controlling insulin in the Zone. As I understand, even under 5 is ok. I had a 3 on my last fasting insulin test.

Good discussion!

Here is my 2 cents worth...

I have never noticed a difference with regard to satiety when I use steel cut oats or old-fashioned rolled oats. However, I DO notice less satiety using quick-cooking oats (probably because these oats are already overly processed, and cooking them sends me over the edge!) So, despite the fact that rolled oats are listed as "unfavorable", it is really up to each individual to determine if they work for you or not.

Sue,
I have done some reading in the past few weeks. I discovered an interesting fact, that a low fasting insulin level is not always a good indication that you are controlling insulin in the Zone. A low fasting insulin can also be a sign that the pancreas are shutting down. Diabetics will have reduced insulin levels, because their pancreas are no longer able to produce an adequate amount of insulin.

Therefore, to apply this to us Zoners, we should really consider our level of carb sensitivity and if we have low fasting insulin levels (or even lower ones like yours), then we should also check fasting blood sugars and lipid panels to make sure that a low insulin is not indicating diabetes, and that the TG/HDL levels are in check.

Did you have a full workup when you got your fasting insulin result?

Thanks for your concern about me. I do not have diabetes and I enjoy excellent lab results in all areas.

The fasting insulin info in my previous post in this thread is taken directly from Zone books and from my convesations with two professionals I hold in very high regard, Barry Sears and my endocrinologist, who is a professor at the Yale School of Medicine.

I will definitely have to find the article that I was reading that talked about it. I am sure that there are some renowned doctors who wrote that, as well.

My point is that a fasting insulin level lower than the 5-10 range may be indicative that your pancreas are not working as well. Other factors must be considered to determine the meaning of the fasting insulin.

Here is one, I don't know if this is the one that I read, but this article also substantiates what I stated earlier.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20010315/1159.html

Here is another source that helps explain in layman terms how a low fasting insulin level can indicate problems with the pancreas.

http://www.labtestsonline.org/under...st.html#is

<div class='NTForums_Quote'>Posted By Cranberrycat on 11/06/2008 8:03 PM
I have never seen Barry Sears write anything about dropping ones' fasting insulin level lower than 5. </div>






Here's Barry's opinion on a fasting insulin reading lower than 5 for a person with good lab results:

http://drsears.com/tabid/399/itemid...o-low.aspx


<<Fasting insulin too low



Q: I have been following a low-carb approach to nutrition since July (about 2 1/2 months). I have completely given up all junk food, and my carbs come only from vegetables and some select fruit (strawberries, blueberries, raspberries). I eat meat (pork, chicken, beef) and fish (salmon, flounder, tuna, hake). I occasionally drink protein powder ( 22g protein,3g carb per serving). My question pertains to a blood test I had recently from YFH. The results showed my triglycerides to be 55, my HDL to be 68, which gave me a TG/HDL ratio of .81. My total cholesterol was 219.My LDL was 140. They also did a fasting insulin test, and my result was less than 2.0. That was said to be out of the normal range, which apparently is 5.0 to 35.0. My A1C hemoglobin ratio was 4.7 percent in the normal range of 3 percent to 6 percent. I don't understand what the 2.0 fasting insulin means in relation to being quite a bit below the normal range. Does that mean I'm not eating enough carbs? I hope not because I'm quite comfortable doing without the pasta and bread and all that sugar and white flour in all that junk food I used to eat. I am 49 years old, 6'-4" and about 190 pounds. I run 30 minutes a day about four or five days a week, and I work out with weights a couple of days a week. From what I've read in the Zone books and a few others, (Protein Power LifePlan), it would seem that my cholesterol numbers are pretty good, but I am curious and very concerned about my fasting insulin being so far below the normal range. Could you possibly help me out by explaining what my results in fasting insulin and A1C hemoglobin mean? I was thinking of going to my family physician, but if she is not a proponent or believer in low- carb or the Zone approach, she may try to discourage me or to change my mind. I am a strong believer in low-carb and the severe damage that ingesting white flour and sugar can do, but I am in strong need of some expert advice. Please help? My AA/EPA ratio was 20

A: Dear Rick,

Your fasting insulin level is just fine, in fact excellent. Your excellent HgA1c results confirm this. However, the elevated AA/EPA ratio indicates that you will need fish oil to bring your eicosanoids into an appropriate range. This sometimes happens even if you can have excellent insulin control. With your insulin levels under control, you should start with 2.5 grams per day of long-chain omega-3 fatty acids, which should reduce your AA/EPA to the desired levels.>>

Sue, that basically has nothing to do with what I was talking about. The person who posted the question had excellent labs. This would not be indicative of diabetes.

Perhaps you missed my prior post, but my point was that one can't use fasting insulin ALONE to determine whether or not one is in the Zone, because a fasting insulin needs to be considered with other factors, such as what was mentioned. If one does not know what one's blood sugar status and lipid profile is, then a fasting insulin by itself is meaningless.

I'll defer to Barry's opinion on how to determine that one is in the Zone. He is the author of the Zone and he uses fasting insulin readings to define it.

I think highly of Dr. Sear's work with the Zone. However, I also choose not to be too "tunnel-visioned" about it. But,he is only one voice, and there are so many other voices out there to be heard. You, yourself, said that you also highly regard the opinion of your endocrinologist. I bet that there are some occasions in which they may not agree entirely on each and every issue.

That is what makes the "science" behind this so interesting!

Couldn't agree more Cranberrycat. If everything Dr Sears said was perfectly correct then i would still be eating mostly fresh watermelon and pineapple for carbs like his first book said was favorable and i still wouldn't be eating carrots.

Often times one of his new books will have a revelation that i had been aware for months if not years form a seperate source.

The base of his diet is by far the best i have ever come across for nutrition and overall health but it will always continue to evolve through his own work and the work of others.

Sue,

When I speak about "tunnel-vision", I am referring to the fact that I prefer to collect information from a number of authors, not just one. With regard to insulin control, Barry defines the Zone as insulin levels between 5-10 (which I would certainly agree with). I think that the discrepency comes not in what Barry is saying, but with the fact that OTHERS acknowledge that a low fasting insulin (lower than 5) could also be indicative of a pancreatic disorder, such as diabetes. I think even Barry would acknowledge the possibility of a low fasting insulin in light of other factors (considering the labwork that was mentioned earlier) as being indicative of a disease rather than an "excellent" lab result.

I think you are missing the point that I was making. I was merely trying to point out to the other readers of this thread that one must consider other things rather than going solely on fasting insulin levels as a meter for the Zone.

Sue, I don't mean to be rude, but do you plan on deleting all of your posts after I have replied to them?

Type I diabetics do not make insulin. Type II diabetics make insulin, but have become resistant to it. The body makes more and more insulin, which does not move glucose into the cells. A low insulin level, in light of good blood sugars, is a GOOD thing in Type IIs. Type II diabetics do not 'eventually' develop Type I diabetes. They are totally separate diseases. Type II diabetes is reversible, if the causes of insulin resistance are removed.

Good point, Debbie.

Sometimes Type I Diabetes is associated with Insulin-Dependent Diabetes, rather than the fact that it is a separate disease. But, you are correct, type II doesn't turn into type I. Type II has to potential to be come insulin dependent, but that is not necessarily type I. However, I would also add that those who develop insulin dependent diabetes are much more difficult to reverse the disease. It all depends on how much damage is done, and how capable the pancreas is at producing insulin. It "over-produces" in the phase of pre-diabetes and insulin resistance, but when type II is setting in, it becomes less capable of producing insulin, which is why the blood sugar gets so screwed up.

This is great! Heavy Breakfast is must!