 |
|
|
| You are not authorized to post a reply.
|
|
| Author |
Messages |
|
Cranberrycat 
Posts:1994
Zoner
 |
| 02/20/2008 6:42 PM |
 Alert
|
Bev-Ann,
I had a chance to look at those links.
http://www.diabetesnet.com/diabetes_food_diet/satiety_index.phpIn this article, they discussed the satiety index. The point was made that additional dietary fat was less satiating than a slice of white bread. I believe the example used was peanuts. However, I think that the problem with this theory is that the foods were served as "stand-alone" foods, whereas, we are talking about balanced meals and snacks. This article does not say whether or not fat added to a meal of protein and carbs can increase satiety of a meal. However, that is what we are trying to do in the zone. Fat is used for at least 2 purposes: to meet dietary needs, and to slow the release of glucose into the bloodstream.
http://www.reason.com/news/show/28714.html
I have read this one before. I don't think that this really applies to our situation, either. They are basically talking about low-carb diets that take the limiting of carb consumption to the extreme (even though they mention the Zone, I would not really classify the Zone as a low carb diet, and that is one of the mistakes that many seem to make). On low carb diets, the purpose is to push the dieter into ketosis by limiting the carb and pushing protein and fat. Again, this does not really apply to the zone, where the purpose is to balance the 3 nutrients. I would agree, eating protein and fat alone is not satisfying to me; however, a meal composed of all three nutrients in the right balance does seem to work, and I have found that a slight increase in fat does seem to affect my satiety.
With all of that being said, and what I posted before, I feel that I get caught between a rock and a hard place, trying to balance fat intake with appropriate types of carbs (and the right protein) to make a meal satisfying. If I bump the fat, I get more satiety, but then my wt loss stalls. If I bring the fat down to the appropriate level, I lose satiety, and I feel that I still don't have control over insulin levels due to hunger. So, I will definitely give the soluble fiber a try. First, will try it without altering fat in my meal, and then I will see if I get the same results by decreasing my fat back down to 9 grams per meal.
Again, thanks for your thoughts and ideas! That is what I have been looking for, some fresh ideas!
|
|
Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
|
|
|
Sue 
Posts:4175
Zoner
|
| 02/20/2008 6:56 PM |
Alert
|
Don't forget about the role of fat in relation to cck, appetite, and satiety. You can read more about it in Zone books.
|
|
sue
lost 100 lbs 13 yrs ago, off BP meds, thanks to the Zone diet and Zone fish oil!
for more photos, scroll over this photo and click when the link appears
 |
|
|
Bev-Ann
Posts:107
Zoner
|
| 02/20/2008 8:52 PM |
Alert
|
CBCat, the fibre should be 20% of the total carbs. So for a food with 20g of total carbs, 5g should be fibre for a net of 15g. A standard Zone block of 9g net carbs should be just over 11g of total carbs.
The recommended daily intake of fibre (both soluble and insoluble) is a minimum of 25g for a woman and 30g for a man. If we strive for 20% of our total carbs to be fibre, we'll be able to do this on The Zone.
|
|
|
|
|
Bev-Ann
Posts:107
Zoner
|
| 02/20/2008 9:06 PM |
Alert
|
Sue and CBCat, Sears doesn't say that dietary fat delays the release of blood sugar and insulin or that it balances a meal. He only talks about carbs and protein being in balance. Fat is it's own entity and he mentions it only in relation to CCK. The satiety study proves that dietary fat doesn't dampen appetite so I'd like to see some proof to back up his theory.
|
|
|
|
|
Cranberrycat
Posts:1994
Zoner
|
| 02/20/2008 9:25 PM |
Alert
|
Bev-Ann,
On the contrary, Sears does write about how dietary fat slows digestion, which slows the release of glucose, which in turn moderates the insulin levels.
In "Mastering the Zone", page 21 says "fat slows the entry of carbohydrates into the bloodstream. In essence, fat acts like a control rod in a nuclear reactor to prevent an overproduction of insulin. The slower the rate that carbohydrates enter the bloodstream, the lower the insulin production. And the lower the insulin levels, the more likely you are to release stored body fat for energy. So in fact, fat is really your ally in chipping away stored bodyfat."
The satiety study only proves that fat alone was not as satiating as a slice of white bread. This study is really not relevant to the Zone, because the Zone combines all 3 nutrients together. Not one single nutrient can be satisfying, but all three put together can be a successful combination.
THat being said, I still feel that you have a very good point in relation to the soluble fiber, and that is a piece of the puzzle that hasn't really been covered much (at least from where I am sitting). |
|
Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
|
|
|
Cranberrycat
Posts:1994
Zoner
|
| 02/20/2008 9:31 PM |
Alert
|
[quote]Posted By Bev-Ann on 02/20/2008 8:52 PM
CBCat, the fibre should be 20% of the total carbs. So for a food with 20g of total carbs, 5g should be fibre for a net of 15g. A standard Zone block of 9g net carbs should be just over 11g of total carbs.
The recommended daily intake of fibre (both soluble and insoluble) is a minimum of 25g for a woman and 30g for a man. If we strive for 20% of our total carbs to be fibre, we'll be able to do this on The Zone.
[/quote]
Bev-Ann, I was referring to the amount of fiber I should add to my snack or meal. In my example, I was figuring that 2 grams of fiber is equal to 20% of the 9 net grams of carb in my snack, which does total 11. So, if my carb is primarily veggie carb, with unsoluble fiber, I should add an extra 2 grams of soluble fiber to a snack or 5-6 grams to a meal.
|
|
Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
|
|
|
Bev-Ann
Posts:107
Zoner
|
| 02/20/2008 9:36 PM |
Alert
|
CBCat, I wish I'd kept the books but I returned them to the library. :-)
Sears mentions in one of his more recent books that dietary fat doesn't affect BG or insulin release. It's probably the Inflammation Zone. Also, The Zone is a low-carb nonketogenic diet. It is nonketogenic only because it has a higher percentage of carbs than protein, but it is still low-carb.
http://www.poly.asu.edu/news/2007/12/06/
|
|
|
|
|
Cranberrycat
Posts:1994
Zoner
|
| 02/20/2008 9:46 PM |
Alert
|
Bev-Ann,
I think you might be missing the point that Sears is making about dietary fat. It is true, fat does not affect BG or insulin release. But, what he is saying is that it doesn't RAISE BG or raise insulin levels.
I know that there are those who say that the Zone is a low carb diet, but I believe that a low carb diet is one that is ketogenic. Since the zone is nonketogenic, it is more of a moderate carb diet.
The link you provided was an article that was discussed here just a few months ago in this forum. It is interesting to me, because this article was used to promote the Zone, but a lot of Zoners actually took issue with it! |
|
Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
|
|
|
Bev-Ann
Posts:107
Zoner
|
| 02/20/2008 10:32 PM |
Alert
|
That study was in a newsletter sent to me last week by this website.
Low-carb is definied as a certain amount of carbs, not whether it's ketogenic or not.
And I goofed on the fibre calc example...20% of 20g total fibre would be 4g not 5. Sorry about that! But you're right, adding at least 2g of soluble fibre for every 9g of net carbs should help.
And Sears can't have it both ways...if fat slows digestion, which has been proven not to be the case, then it would affect BG and insulin because it's slowing the relase of both. Only the peanuts were almost all fat in the satiety study...the rest of the foods were mixed with carbs like the cake, chocolate bar, croissant, etc or high-protein. The croissant would be expected to have a higher satiety level than white bread, twice the carbs and twelve times the fat, but instead it had less than half the satiety rating. And in the other article it was noted that people who ate low-fat meals ate between 16 and 24% less food than those who ate high-fat meals. These were ad libitum meals (ate as much as they wanted until sated). |
|
|
|
|
Cranberrycat
Posts:1994
Zoner
|
| 02/21/2008 9:23 AM |
Alert
|
I still think you are misinterpreting what Sears is saying about fat.
Fat, as a stand-alone food, will not affect glucose or insulin. And, fat does not DIRECTLY affect glucose or insulin when combined with protein and carb. However, in the actual process of digestion, fat slows down digestion, so that the entry of the glucose is slowed. If fat was eliminated from the meal, then the process of digestion would go faster.
You can think of fat's role similar to fiber. Fiber does not impact blood glucose or insulin levels, right? But, it does slow down the process of digestion, which results in a slower release of BG and moderated insulin levels.
|
|
Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
|
|
|
Bev-Ann
Posts:107
Zoner
|
| 02/21/2008 12:47 PM |
Alert
|
The first study is in healthy subjects, the second in diabetics.
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/17/12/1453
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/16/6/874
|
|
|
|
|
Cranberrycat
Posts:1994
Zoner
|
| 02/21/2008 3:12 PM |
Alert
|
Interesting study results, but I would be concerned with the small number of subjects that were tested.
All I can really tell you is from my personal experience. If I short the fat in a meal, I will not have the same length of meal satiety. I have no other studies to back this up, just what happens in my body. |
|
Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
|
|
|
Bev-Ann
Posts:107
Zoner
|
| 02/21/2008 3:22 PM |
Alert
|
And the amount of fat makes little or no difference for most people. Look at overweight/obese people who eat a lot of high-fat meals. It certainly doesn't affect their appetites or help their BG and insulin. The combo of fat and high-glycemic carbs is what eventually makes them insulin resistant. Look at healthy vegetarians...they eat very little fat but a lot of carbs and they're not overweight or insulin resistant. So fat is not a good thing when combined with carbs unless you're trying to provoke a higher insulin response like bodybuilders do after a strenuous workout.
I personally can eat 2 or more pounds of chocolate-covered almonds before I start to feel full, but I get too full very quickly on a simple 3-block Zone meal which is relatively low-fat. It's the protein and fibre in the Zone meal that are filling me up, not the tiny amount of fat. And my reaction is typical, not atypical.
|
|
|
|
|
Cranberrycat
Posts:1994
Zoner
|
| 02/21/2008 3:33 PM |
Alert
|
A couple of issues here...
When you say "Look at healthy vegetarians...they eat very little fat but a lot of carbs and they're not overweight or insulin resistant.", I can't agree with this statement. I know of 2 people in my circle of friends who are vegetarian, and they are both overweight.
And, when you say "I personally can eat 2 or more pounds of chocolate-covered almonds before I start to feel full, but I get too full very quickly on a simple 3-block Zone meal which is relatively low-fat. It's the protein and fibre in the Zone meal that are filling me up, not the tiny amount of fat", all I can say is that it is a combination of all three nutrients that make up meal satiety, not just one or two. I think that there are plenty of zoners out there who can say that their meal satiety is quite different if they cut out the fat. Therefore, it is not really the protein and the fiber that work towards satiety. And, it is not fat, alone, either. It is the combination of all three. |
|
Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
|
|
|
Bev-Ann
Posts:107
Zoner
|
| 02/21/2008 4:22 PM |
Alert
|
I never said it was fat alone and I agree that the combo of macronutrients is what's keeping us full, but it's because of the high ratio of protein and fibre. If you increase fat, it won't do much to curb the appetite for most people as evidenced by the satiety study. You are obviously an exception to this but even you said that it wasn't helping completely. I suppose we'll just agree to disagree on this. :-)
And I know several strict vegans and they all remind me of stick-people because they're so thin. I've never seen an overweight vegan but I would never want to be one because I enjoy meat too much. :-)) |
|
|
|
|
Cranberrycat
Posts:1994
Zoner
|
| 02/21/2008 5:52 PM |
Alert
|
Well, I don't know if I am an exception, it seems as though the additional fat has helped quite a few others, too.
However, I will agree with you, that the added fat has only helped me marginally. It helps to a degree, but there is still lots of room for improvement.
You should see some of the vegans in WI, I think they are definitely heavier! But, it could also be that the staple tends to be pasta and rice, rather than veggies.
I did try some psyllium in a smoothie this morning. Will have to test this out more, but I think it helped. My "normal" smoothie recipe calls for protein powder, but I am all out of it, and so I made it from 1/2 cup milk, 1/4 cup yogurt, 2 cup strawberries, 1/2 cup cottage cheese, 1 tsp EVOO, and psyllium with 6 g fiber (was hard to estimate, since it is supposed to be "rounded" tsp as the measurement). I lasted 3 hours on the smoothie, and normally (with my regular recipe) I haven't been lasting that long.
|
|
Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
|
|
|
Bev-Ann
Posts:107
Zoner
|
| 02/22/2008 12:40 PM |
Alert
|
The vegans I know eat only sprouted grain products, nothing with flour. They combine rice and beans/lentils to get their protein. I think you're right, it's probably the pasta that's causing the weight problems for the people you know.
If you used only 1 tsp of psyllium in your smoothie, it only added 2g of fibre. You need a full tbsp of psyllium for 6g of fibre. I never recommend psyllium because there's a hazard of choking on it if it swells in your esophagus. Pick up some Benefibre or something similar instead.
|
|
|
|
|
Bev-Ann
Posts:107
Zoner
|
| 02/22/2008 1:04 PM |
Alert
|
CBCat, I entered the ingredients you listed for the smoothie into FitDay and you're over by a block of net carbs for a 3-block meal (35g instead of 27g). That could be why you're having problems and it's why I don't use Sears lists. They're not accurate at all. Plus all the milk protein will cause an insulin spike even though it won't raise blood sugar very much.
If you've been using whey protein powder, switch to egg protein or sprouted brown rice protein powder. Whey is one of the proteins in milk that raises insulin and it's digested very quickly so it won't keep you full very long. The quick digestibility is why body builders use it.
You should sign up for an account on www.fitday.com (it's free) and keep a log of your meals. You might find that they're out of whack.
|
|
|
|
|
Cranberrycat
Posts:1994
Zoner
|
| 02/22/2008 2:53 PM |
Alert
|
Bev-Ann,
In the smoothie, I used 2 tsp of psyllium. Figured if I had much more, I would get it too thick. And, it was pretty thick! I didn't care too much for the texture, but it was what I had sitting around, and wanted to find out if it would make a difference.
I don't see how I was over on my carb blocks in that smoothie. 1/2 cup milk is 1/2 block, 1/4 cup of yogurt is 1/2 block, and 2 cups strawberries is 2 blocks. I am only counting 3 blocks, there. Perhaps you can break it down and show me where you think that I went over in blocks.
I have used egg white protein powder, I have found that it doesn't really make that much difference for me. Actually, I am really only using protein powder in my oats now, and am trying to eliminate its usage for all other things. I won't give it up in the oats, though, because that is my favorite way of fixing it!
I have used Fitday, but I actually have my own diary system that I built, using an Excel spreadsheet. I started with the block list, and added calculations so that I can change the volume of food that I use, and the block calculation will change with it. I have also been adding columns onto the spreadsheet to include the GL (which also will change according to serving size) and several other things: P/C/F grams, fiber grams, net carbs, and some of the more popular vitamin/mineral content. I think I will be separating out the fiber so that I have soluble and insoluble fiber, too (since we discussed it). I had also considered adding the Zone Points, but since the points index is shorter than the food block guide, I would not have complete information. Besides, with the GL in there, might be too much info already!
Then, when I record my food diary, I just copy the line over from the block list to my food diary. I also have a line where I can record time of the meal and the meal satiety response.
The diary isn't complete, but most of my more popular ingredients are all there, and I can at least use it for counting blocks. |
|
Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
|
|
|
Bev-Ann
Posts:107
Zoner
|
| 02/22/2008 3:09 PM |
Alert
|
Your smoothie has 35g of net carbs. A 3-block meal is only 27g of net carbs (9g net carbs per block). I won't use the Zone lists because they're not accurate for carbs or anything else for that matter. For example, 1 cup of milk is a minimum of 12g of net carbs if it's homo, and 13g if it's low-fat or skim. So 3/4 cup, not a whole cup, would be one block.
Enter your smoothie into your spreadsheet, get the net carbs from nutritiondata and total them up. It's 35g net carbs making it over by 8g. The fat is right on at 9g and the protein is 20g so it's ok too.
Since you're having so much trouble, you should consider using the correct data for your foods and not rely on the Zone lists. FitDay already has all the nutrition data so you don't have to look it up. Forget about the Zone lists and just adjust the portion of food until it reaches the correct net carbs for the number of blocks in the meal.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
|
|
ActiveForums 3.6
|
|
|
Start getting Zone recipes, tips, articles and exclusive promotions sent right to your inbox!
After you provide your email address we’ll send you a confirmation email. You can “opt-out” of this program at anytime by following the simple instructions provided at the end of every email we send you. We will never send too many emails (spam) and we’ll never sell of rent your email to another company.
If you are already registerd with ZoneDiet.com and are receiving emails from Dr. Sears Zone then you do not need to provide your email address to us at this time.
To assure your Zone emails reach your inbox, be sure to add our email address,
reply@zoneliving.com, to your address book.
|
|