 |
|
|
| You are not authorized to post a reply.
|
|
| Author |
Messages |
|
White Light 
Posts:0
Newbie
 |
| 11/03/2004 6:15 AM |
 Alert
|
| Hi All,
[quote:dd97eff72e="Scott"][quote:dd97eff72e="tech@drsears.com"][quote:dd97eff72e="Scott"]IMO, Barry Sears view (inflammation) and that of the AHA (lipid hypothesis) are quite different. The latter believes that excess dietary fat accumulates in the arteries, essentially clogging the pipes. The Sears model is that hormonal changes take place that cause vasoconstriction, inflammation and platelet aggregation-- more later[/quote:dd97eff72e]
IMO it isn't wrong to say that excess dietary fat can lead to "plumbing" problems. It's important to recognize good fats vs. bad fats. Obviously saturated and trans fats can lead to clogged arteries or "plumbing" problems.[/quote:dd97eff72e]
Thanks for the input tech.
There are of course good and bad fats. But I don't believe even the "bad" fats contribute to disease in this manner (by building up and clogging arteries).
The following link may be useful.
http://www.sciamdigital.com/browse.cfm?sequencenameCHAR=item2&methodnameCHAR=resource_getitembrowse&interfacenameCHAR=browse.cfm&ISSUEID_CHAR=AAA18CA1-0A08-41DB-0C02F4AD2F6ED031&ARTICLEID_CHAR=AB4AFDBA-0D14-446A-1A8E96E4C3DC1864&sc=I100322[/quote:dd97eff72e]
I am happy to report Tech correctly represents both Dr Sears, Zone and Mainstrem on this issue
Scott, How can you think EXCESS fat accumulation does not cause this well known problem ?
Certainly excess carbs converted to fat are as bad or worse than sat fat consumption, but clogged pipes is still the mumber 1 killer in the USA !
White Light |
|
|
|
|
Dennis
Posts:1
Newbie
|
| 11/03/2004 3:41 PM |
Alert
|
| [quote:96dd6ef510="White Light"]I am happy to report Tech correctly represents both Dr Sears, Zone and Mainstream on this issue
Scott, How can you think EXCESS fat accumulation does not cause this well known problem ?
Certainly excess carbs converted to fat are as bad or worse than sat fat consumption, but clogged pipes is still the number 1 killer in the USA![/quote:96dd6ef510]
These replies are a bit confusing to me. Please allow me try to restate the issue in other technically more accurate terms:
Tech says that it is hormonal disturbances that cause heart disease according to Berry Sears. The medical research establishment says that "artery pipes" do not clog from to much fat, but do get "growths" on the inside walls due to injuries, and the inappropriate inflammatory responses to these. These growths can sometimes rupture and break off, causing a blockage that leads to heart attack or stroke. Both are in agreement.
Dr. Sears also says that certain types of fats (in the poly-unsaturated category --both normal, or hydrogenated into trans fats) cause hormonal changes in the body (both good and bad). In addition, excess stored body fat around the internal organs (tummy region), can also cause hormonal disturbances in the body that contribute to excess inflammation. The medical research also backs this up.
Everyone also agrees that mono-unsaturated fats are much better than most poly-unsaturated fats for heart health.
Eating saturated fat is the area that has a wide array of opinions. So far, my research indicates that there is a strong case in the medical research for the dietary need for saturated fats. However, it is not a case of all or nothing. The greatest health needs the proper blend of saturated fats of different kinds and mono-unsaturated fats, along with a small amount of the proper kind of poly-unsaturated fat. Trans fats have no place in a healthy diet.
I will be posting more on this in the near future. It has taken months of daily research to get my head around this issue. And it is not as easy as I first thought to summarize it into practical application. The state of medical research is still very infantile. |
|
|
|
|
Scott
Posts:0
Newbie
|
| 11/03/2004 5:18 PM |
Alert
|
| [quote:dabfb21cee="White Light"]
Scott, How can you think EXCESS fat accumulation does not cause this well known problem ?
Certainly excess carbs converted to fat are as bad or worse than sat fat consumption, but clogged pipes is still the mumber 1 killer in the USA !
[/quote:dabfb21cee]
Excess of anything can cause problems--I just don't believe it occurs in the manner that I am intrepreting on this thread (fat building up within the arteries).
Excess omega-6 results in increases in pro-inflammatory/vascoconstricting/platelet aggregating eicosanoids.
Excess of certain saturated fats can increase cellular membrane rigidity, increasing insulin levels, and resulting in the same increases in series-2 eicosanoids described above (excess inflammation, constriction, platelet aggregation)
Excess transfats gum up the desaturase pathways that metabolize essential fatty acids into eicosanoids.
Excess fat(calories) in general [i:dabfb21cee]may[/i:dabfb21cee] increase insulin levels in order to store such excess, which ultimately increases the rate of AA synthesis and the resulting series-2 eicosanoids.
I don't believe that fat, saturated or trans, simply sits in the blood stream, slowly piling up. |
|
|
|
|
Scott
Posts:0
Newbie
|
| 11/03/2004 5:22 PM |
Alert
|
| [quote:8cdd4c8bbc="BrianG"]My (uneducated) understanding is that inflammation results in the rupturing of atheroclerotic plaques; I've never heard that inflammation causes the initial accumulation of plaques. Is that true? I thought the jury was pretty much out on that one.[/quote:8cdd4c8bbc]
According to what I have seen, inflammation contributes to the accmulation of plaques as well as the rupturing. |
|
|
|
|
Fatboyslim
Posts:0
Newbie
|
| 11/03/2004 5:23 PM |
Alert
|
| [quote:6d6bfe2420="WL"]Scott, How can you think EXCESS fat accumulation does not cause this well known problem ?
Certainly excess carbs converted to fat are as bad or worse than sat fat consumption, but clogged pipes is still the mumber 1 killer in the USA ! [/quote:6d6bfe2420]
I'm not Scott, but this is still very interesting, so if I may...
EXCESS fat accumulation is not caused by eating fat, so why are you pointing the finger at fat? It is caused by excess carbohydrate consumption. This per Dr. Sears, via insulin.
"Clogged pipes". While the phrase may be inaccurate, the meaning is clear enough. It's been stated several times that it is clear that clogged pipes are caused by SFA, but I just don't buy it. Why blame SFA when the clogs are made of 2/3 pufa's, and the cholesterol(the repair substance) that is there is oxidized, which means SFA, which doesn't oxidize, is cleared of wrongdoing. |
|
|
|
|
White Light
Posts:0
Newbie
|
| 11/04/2004 3:24 AM |
Alert
|
| Hi Dennis,
On this topic we are in agreement,
Your comment that trans fat has no place in a healthy diet may be misinterpereted!
While we would all be better with none, Modern living ensures we all get some (if we ever eat out)
certainly minimize it avoid it where you can, but unfortuneatly, it ca not be totally eliminated.
White Light
[quote:5802b259bc="gofish"][quote:5802b259bc="White Light"]I am happy to report Tech correctly represents both Dr Sears, Zone and Mainstream on this issue
Scott, How can you think EXCESS fat accumulation does not cause this well known problem ?
Certainly excess carbs converted to fat are as bad or worse than sat fat consumption, but clogged pipes is still the number 1 killer in the USA![/quote:5802b259bc]
These replies are a bit confusing to me. Please allow me try to restate the issue in other technically more accurate terms:
Tech says that it is hormonal disturbances that cause heart disease according to Berry Sears. The medical research establishment says that "artery pipes" do not clog from to much fat, but do get "growths" on the inside walls due to injuries, and the inappropriate inflammatory responses to these. These growths can sometimes rupture and break off, causing a blockage that leads to heart attack or stroke. Both are in agreement.
Dr. Sears also says that certain types of fats (in the poly-unsaturated category --both normal, or hydrogenated into trans fats) cause hormonal changes in the body (both good and bad). In addition, excess stored body fat around the internal organs (tummy region), can also cause hormonal disturbances in the body that contribute to excess inflammation. The medical research also backs this up.
Everyone also agrees that mono-unsaturated fats are much better than most poly-unsaturated fats for heart health.
Eating saturated fat is the area that has a wide array of opinions. So far, my research indicates that there is a strong case in the medical research for the dietary need for saturated fats. However, it is not a case of all or nothing. The greatest health needs the proper blend of saturated fats of different kinds and mono-unsaturated fats, along with a small amount of the proper kind of poly-unsaturated fat. Trans fats have no place in a healthy diet.
I will be posting more on this in the near future. It has taken months of daily research to get my head around this issue. And it is not as easy as I first thought to summarize it into practical application. The state of medical research is still very infantile.[/quote:5802b259bc] |
|
|
|
|
White Light
Posts:0
Newbie
|
| 11/04/2004 3:38 AM |
Alert
|
| Hi Bob,
.[quote:6b64fccec6]
Scott, How can you think EXCESS fat accumulation does not cause this well known problem ?
Certainly excess carbs converted to fat are as bad or worse than sat fat consumption, but clogged pipes is still the mumber 1 killer in the USA ! [/quote:6b64fccec6]
.[quote:6b64fccec6]I'm not Scott, but this is still very interesting, so if I may....[/quote:6b64fccec6]
Most certainly
.[quote:6b64fccec6]EXCESS fat accumulation is not caused by eating fat, .[/quote:6b64fccec6]
I was refering to fat accumulation in arteries
.[quote:6b64fccec6] so why are you pointing the finger at fat? It is caused by excess carbohydrate consumption. This per Dr. Sears, via insulin. .[/quote:6b64fccec6]
Fat STOREAGE requires insulin, that is the why the atkin diet works re weight. It does not however stop heart disease via the clogged pipes theory.
.[quote:6b64fccec6]"Clogged pipes". While the phrase may be inaccurate, the meaning is clear enough. It's been stated several times that it is clear that clogged pipes are caused by SFA, but I just don't buy it. Why blame SFA when the clogs are made of 2/3 pufa's, and the cholesterol(the repair substance) that is there is oxidized, which means SFA, which doesn't oxidize, is cleared of wrongdoing.[/quote:6b64fccec6]
Traditional theory says it is saturated fat , be that from direct consumption or excess carbs converted, the result is the same. I am unsure as to your theory on the cause of the #1 killer in USA, can you be more specific please.
White Light |
|
|
|
|
Fatboyslim
Posts:0
Newbie
|
| 11/04/2004 10:52 PM |
Alert
|
| Bear with me if this wanders and rambles, but so does the subject....
Fat in the arteries... Do you mean plaques or TG? I think TG is put there by the liver, while handling excess carbs/sugars. Just something I've read that seems to make a modicum of sense. Plaques, on the other hand...they are made up of mostly pufa and oxidized cholesterol.
So my guess on CHD is: Before about 1920, there was virtually no CHD. And there was also no corn oil and all it's cousins(soy oil, safflower oil, ALL the vegetable oils), and margarine was just making it's grand entrance onto the scene. So if CHD didn't exist before these things, my guess is it is all these things. BUT! SFA was in common use all along, in the form of animal fat, butter, whole milk, etc. But we didn't have CHD then, so I wouldn't bet on it being SFA's.
I've read that there have been identified over 300 risk factors for CHD. That in itself tells you they don't have a clue. So if they don't have a clue, I may as well be my "science experiment of one" and make my own choice. Eliminating pufa and trans fats as best I can are my starting points. Also only eat real foods - if I can't say the ingredients, I don't want to ingest it. And try to minimize white poison-sugar. |
|
|
|
|
Scott
Posts:0
Newbie
|
| 11/04/2004 11:17 PM |
Alert
|
| [quote:f900061859="Fatboyslim"]So my guess on CHD is: Before about 1920, there was virtually no CHD. And there was also no corn oil and all it's cousins(soy oil, safflower oil, ALL the vegetable oils), and margarine was just making it's grand entrance onto the scene. So if CHD didn't exist before these things, my guess is it is all these things. BUT! SFA was in common use all along, in the form of animal fat, butter, whole milk, etc. But we didn't have CHD then, so I wouldn't bet on it being SFA's.
[/quote:f900061859]
CHD certainly existed before the advent of vegetable oils--but I agree that it is more prevalent because of them and their high omega-6 content. As for what contributes to CHD--I am sticking with the Zone on this one--primarily excess chronic inflammation caused by a high dietary glcemic load and high omega-6 intake.
In fact, a high dietary glycemic load has been shown to increase LDL synthesis, promote LDL oxidation, increase triglycerides, decrease HDL, promote platelet aggregation, promote vasoconstriction, increase inflammation, increase C-reactive protein, PAI-1 concentration---how many more risk factors are there?
Brand Miller, JC [i:f900061859]"Glycemic index in relation to coronary artery disease"[/i:f900061859] Asia Pacific J Clin Nutr 2004; 13(suppl):S3
Liu S, et al [i:f900061859]"Relation between a diet high with a high glycemic load and plasma concentrations of high-sensitivity C-reactive protein in middle-aged women"[/i:f900061859] AM J Clin Nutr 2002 Mar;75(3):492-8
Leeds AR [i:f900061859]"Glycemic index and heart disease"[/i:f900061859] Am J Clin Nutr 2002 Jul;76(1):286S-9S |
|
|
|
|
Fatboyslim
Posts:0
Newbie
|
| 11/04/2004 11:34 PM |
Alert
|
| [quote:976c6cb6a9="Scott"]As for what contributes to CHD--I am sticking with the Zone on this one--primarily excess chronic inflammation caused by a high dietary glcemic load and high omega-6 intake. [/quote:976c6cb6a9] So we are saying about the same thing, but you are using nice science words. :D I was going to ask what was causing the inflammation, but then I broke down and read the rest of your post!
Of course CHD existed. So did diabetes, cancer, and all the others. We'd already left paleo behind. Their incidence was very low, comparatively. Curious though - have you seen anything that identifies the ages of people getting chd? My question going to this: If 90% of the chd is in people over 90 years old, we are wasting a lot of time on it for nothing. I made up those numbers to highlight a point. |
|
|
|
|
Scott
Posts:0
Newbie
|
| 11/04/2004 11:38 PM |
Alert
|
| I understood what you meant--just clarifying.
[quote:68ae65a750="Fatboy"]Curious though - have you seen anything that identifies the ages of people getting chd? My question going to this: If 90% of the chd is in people over 90 years old, we are wasting a lot of time on it for nothing. I made up those numbers to highlight a point.[/quote:68ae65a750]
We are seeing the markers of CHD showing up in younger and younger ages--its quite alarming. |
|
|
|
|
White Light
Posts:0
Newbie
|
| 11/05/2004 3:38 AM |
Alert
|
| Hi Bob,
[quote:00fe86c7f2]
Bear with me if this wanders and rambles, but so does the subject....
Fat in the arteries... Do you mean plaques or TG?[/quote:00fe86c7f2]
I do not pretent to understand all the reasons for the buildups That is a totally seperate question. That they occur is the basis for clogged pipes theory
[quote:00fe86c7f2] I think TG is put there by the liver, while handling excess carbs/sugars. Just something I've read that seems to make a modicum of sense. Plaques, on the other hand...they are made up of mostly pufa and oxidized cholesterol.
So my guess on CHD is: Before about 1920, there was virtually no CHD. And there was also no corn oil and all it's cousins(soy oil, safflower oil, ALL the vegetable oils), and margarine was just making it's grand entrance onto the scene. So if CHD didn't exist before these things, my guess is it is all these things. BUT! SFA was in common use all along, in the form of animal fat, butter, whole milk, etc. But we didn't have CHD then, so I wouldn't bet on it being SFA's.[/quote:00fe86c7f2]
The problem existed with excess dairy (saturated) fat it is not new. it may well have got worse with the new introduced fats but then again massive calorie consumption increase may be even more of a factor in recent times ?
[quote:00fe86c7f2]I've read that there have been identified over 300 risk factors for CHD. That in itself tells you they don't have a clue. So if they don't have a clue, I may as well be my "science experiment of one" and make my own choice. Eliminating pufa and trans fats as best I can are my starting points. Also only eat real foods - if I can't say the ingredients, I don't want to ingest it. And try to minimize white poison-sugar
[/quote:00fe86c7f2]
What you are doing is science supported, we continue to learn as we go.
White Light |
|
|
|
|
Charles
Posts:0
Newbie
|
| 11/07/2004 7:42 AM |
Alert
|
| A diet of refined foods can be deficient in B-vitamins. A mild, long-term B-vitamin deficiency has been shown by Dr. Kilmer McCully to cause a build-up of homoncysteine in the blood that contributes to arteriosclerosis. The homocysteine would normally be "recycled" when B-vitamins are present.
The Zone recommendations automatically address this matter. McCully cites Dr. Sears in the back of one of his books.
The first book below is a little more technical. The second, cowritten by his daughter, says pretty much the same thing in a user-friendly way with more emphasis on a healthy diet. - Charlie
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0879839759/qid=1099812468/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-7495068-8751015?v=glance&s=books
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060929731/qid=1099812384/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-7495068-8751015?v=glance&s=books |
|
|
|
|
|
| You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
|
|
ActiveForums 3.6
|
|
|
Start getting Zone recipes, tips, articles and exclusive promotions sent right to your inbox!
After you provide your email address we’ll send you a confirmation email. You can “opt-out” of this program at anytime by following the simple instructions provided at the end of every email we send you. We will never send too many emails (spam) and we’ll never sell of rent your email to another company.
If you are already registerd with ZoneDiet.com and are receiving emails from Dr. Sears Zone then you do not need to provide your email address to us at this time.
To assure your Zone emails reach your inbox, be sure to add our email address,
reply@zoneliving.com, to your address book.
|
|