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Subject: On the subject of ATP and fat as a "High Octane Fuel"

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Sue K User is Offline
Posts:8672
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Zone Expert

04/21/2009 12:27 PM
Hi kevin?

Just wondering. Have you run marathons in the Zone (both training and the event)? My husband and daughters all do and have done great (both daughters are adults and have run multiple marathons each).

sue

Lost 100 lbs 14 yrs ago, off BP meds, thanks to the Zone diet and Zone fish oil!


To view my before/after pics and meal photos scroll over this picture and click when the link appears.

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Kevin User is Offline
Posts:38
Aspiring
Aspiring

04/21/2009 1:11 PM
I've done a lot of race-training in the zone. I've tried to use zone bars for 30 mile training runs and always run out of energy. Where the zone has done the most for me, it's that I can finish a four-six hour training run and not be dead for the rest of the day. For races I use what's on the race tables, mainly cookies or potato chips. I've experimented with adding soy protein to energy drinks. I wear a camelback that holds about three liters of fluid. That keeps me going a bit longer or further. Maybe my age is a factor. I turned 52 this year. I did my first marathon in 1986.

kevin
Sue K User is Offline
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Zone Expert

04/21/2009 1:21 PM
Thanks for the extra info. Not sure what it is in your case, but my husband's 59, last marathon he was 58, so age doesn't seem to be a factor for him (that's my son in the photo, not my husband!). None of my family members eat during the event, just drink water for hydration.

sue

Lost 100 lbs 14 yrs ago, off BP meds, thanks to the Zone diet and Zone fish oil!


To view my before/after pics and meal photos scroll over this picture and click when the link appears.

Zone Dinner Party (link)
Cranberrycat User is Offline
Posts:5313
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Zone Expert

04/21/2009 2:01 PM
Kevin, Matt, Sue... (and anyone else interested)

I have copied the last statement from an article that was written for elite athletes and is posted in the Fitness section of this website:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Eating in “The Zone”

The team’s anti-inflammatory meal plan originates from ‘The Zone’ eating plan but with modifications for an athletic lifestyle.

Concentrating during the day on low-glycaemic foods, that are also low on the inflammatory list, and high-glycaemic foods during training, they get the perfect mix for energy and recovery.

As Rabin himself says: “When there is often such a small margin between winning and losing, a diet such as this could make the difference.”

Aiming to get the best diet for both performance and long-term health, this team appear to be receiving world-class nutritional support.

You can find out more about ‘The Zone Diet’ at www.zonediet.com, but ensure you insert energy-providing high-glycaemic foods before, during the immediately after training.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am having a hard time with this thread, seems to bounce from one side to the other as far as what is appropriate for elite athletes (not that I am anywhere close to that level of performance-LOL). The above article certainly seems to be suggesting that it IS appropriate and necessary to consume some high glycemic foods. This, according to the article, is what will keep an athlete "in the Zone".

Here is the link to the full article:
http://www.zonediet.com/FITNESS/EliteAthletes/DIETTIPSTOAIDRECOVERY/tabid/221/Default.aspx

Cranberrycat

We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.


Matthew User is Offline
Posts:174
Zoner
Zoner

04/21/2009 4:22 PM
Good find CC!

This article does seem to support (rather strongly) what I was writing about before with regard to in-training and immediate post-training nutrition (i.e., high GI carbs + protein + BCAAs). In fact, what is suggested by this article is what I do -- I eat balanced meals with low GI high quality carbs for almost all of my meals... but my immediately pre-workout, during workout, and after workout nutrition is quite different. Also, looking at articles appearing on this site regarding what endurance cyclists actually do during the course of their race, it sure looks like they are doing the exact same thing I am -- high GI carbs + protein (there was no mention of them taking BCAAs).

I will say this... I am not entirely sold on the calorie v. ATP issue. I still haven't heard a response to my e-mail, and while Dr. Sears did respond, there are some discrepancies between various bio-chemistry sources regarding the ATP production values for stored body fat. I have found 2-3 sources saying that the ATP production from stored body fat is about the same ratio as the ratio between calories, and I have found several sources (including Dr. Sears) saying that the ratio is about 20%+ higher for the ATP yield as compared with the caloric yield.

I do no know what to make of these discrepancies, other than to say, "I really don't know what the answer is."

However, I do know enough to know that what Kevin is saying is correct about fat burning in a carbohydrate fire and that when muscle and liver glycogen levels are depleted, performance drops off quite starkly. Carbohydrate sources are the preferred fuel for athletic activities. So, in that sense, regardless of the ATP v. Calorie issue, carbs are absolutely necessary for peak athletic performance simply because your body cannot access enough fat and cannot access it quickly enough to supply the muscles with the ATP they need for continued top level performance. In this sense... carbs are actually high-octane fuel, not stored body fat.

Muscle glycogen is the fastest and most accessible fuel to be converted to ATP/CP if you are engaged in athletics of any modest level of intensity -- even if you are training aerobically as opposed to anaerobically. When you are not training, what your body uses for fuel is flip-flopped, and fat is the preferred energy source.
Matthew User is Offline
Posts:174
Zoner
Zoner

04/21/2009 4:30 PM
CC:

I read that article you linked to, and I note that they actually DO mention the use of amino acids as part of the during competition and post-training meal. In fact, here is the meal they use:

1 cup of sushi rice cooked
3 eggs, scrambled and cooked in olive oil
Bacon or Ham (add all together and mix)
Other ingredients as desired, selected from:
Parmesan
Liquid Amino’s
Salt
Soy Sauce
Honey
Fruit

This IS a high GI + protein meal (and adds BCAAs if desired). This jibes fairly closely with what I have suggested on this site. It makes me feel a bit of justification to see that others have approached the conundrum of training/competition nutrition in the Zone in the same way I have.
Cranberrycat User is Offline
Posts:5313
Zone Expert
Zone Expert

04/21/2009 8:45 PM
Yes.

Even though this thread was more about ATP from fat vs. glucose, I think the point is very clear to me that these athletes NEEDED a high GL meal. To me, it is contradictory to the point that Barry was making about using fat as the fuel.

Of course, maybe we are talking about 2 different situations: running a marathon for the sake of running it vs. winning it. There is a big difference. Running for the sake of running takes "endurance", but running for the sake of winning may take more "power".

Cranberrycat

We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.


sue User is Offline
Posts:263
Zoner
Zoner

04/22/2009 4:44 PM
CC - you are right about endurance vs. endurance with power. Not all weight workouts or cardio sessions are created equal.

sue

I don't know about the future, but I know who holds the future....
Cranberrycat User is Offline
Posts:5313
Zone Expert
Zone Expert

04/22/2009 9:43 PM
And, I was hoping that it would explain why Sue's family can run a marathon on water alone, while other racers who practice the Zone would need a glycemic boost.



Cranberrycat

We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.


Raymond User is Offline
Posts:10



04/25/2009 5:25 PM
From Matthew:

Quote:
I read that article you linked to, and I note that they actually DO mention the use of amino acids as part of the during competition and post-training meal. In fact, here is the meal they use:

1 cup of sushi rice cooked
3 eggs, scrambled and cooked in olive oil
Bacon or Ham (add all together and mix)
Other ingredients as desired, selected from:
Parmesan
Liquid Amino’s
Salt
Soy Sauce
Honey
Fruit
Unquote.

I never cook with Olive Oil and I never eat Soy Sauce!
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Dr. Barry Sears, PhD.Dr. Barry Sears is a leading authority on the dietary control of hormonal response. A former research scientist at the Boston University School of Medicine and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Dr. Sears has dedicated his research efforts over the past 30 years to the study of lipids. He holds 13 U.S. Patents in the areas of intravenous drug delivery systems and hormonal regulation for the treatment of cardiovascular disease.

A turning point in his research occurred in 1982. That year, the Nobel Prize in Medicine was awarded for discoveries of the role that specialized hormones, known as eicosanoids, play in the development of cardiovascular disease, diabetes, auto-immune diseases, and cancer. Since eicosanoids are only generated from dietary fat, Dr. Sears reasoned that one could apply intravenous drug delivery principles to nutrition in order to control these exceptionally powerful hormonal responses with laser-like precision. In essence, his approach treats food as if it were a drug.

This area of his research led to various patents in the area of hormonal control by essentially using food as an oral drug delivery system to modulate eicosanoids especially for cardiovascular, diabetic, and neurological patients.

The impact of Dr. Sears’ revolutionary work in the dietary control of hormonal response began with the publication of his landmark book, The Zone. Since its publication in June 1995, The Zone has sold more than 2,000,000 hardcover copies, and became a #1 best seller on the New York Times book list. In addition, The Zone has been translated into 22 languages indicating a worldwide response to Dr. Sears’ research. His second book, Mastering the Zone, published in 1997, also became a New York Times bestseller with hardcover sales in excess of 500,000 copies to date. His third book, Zone Perfect Meals in Minutes, published in 1997, quickly became one of the best-selling cookbooks of 1997 and an another New York Times bestseller. The Anti-Aging Zone was published in 1999 and provides the molecular insights into how the Zone Diet can reverse the aging process. The Omega Rx Zone, published in 2002, explores the molecular foundation of chronic disease and how high-dose fish oil can dramatically reverse it. His latest book The Anti-Inflammation Zone discusses how to combat silent inflammation in order to reduce the risk of cancer, heart disease, diabetes, dementia, and many other inflammatory conditions—and how to reverse these conditions if they are already present. To date more than 5 million hardcover copies of his Zone books have been sold in the United States.

His research has elevated food from more than simply a source of calories to being recognized as an exceptionally powerful drug. Because of his revolutionary research, Dr. Sears has been a frequent guest on many national programs such as 20/20, Today, Good Morning America, CBS Morning News, CNN, and MSNBC.

Dr. Sears continues his ongoing research as President of Zone Labs, a biotechnology company in Danvers, MA as well as the President of the non-profit Inflammation Research Foundation in Marblehead, MA. In addition to continuing research on the hormonal effects of food, Dr. Sears has expanded his research in developing innovative dietary approaches to treating cancer and neurological conditions, as well as his on-going work in treating cardiovascular diease and type 2 diabetes.

I have been taking the Fish Oil for over 3 years now. I am 44 playing hockey and working out. The Fish oil helps with the pain that I get from playing hockey. It greatly enhances my performance on the ice and while working out. I have noticed a big difference in my energy, attentiveness and memory. If I miss a day for whatever reason, I notice a huge difference and it feels like something is missing. Anyway that is my short little story and it comes from the heart.

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I am a nutritionist and Ph.D. doctor of health and nutrition. For Dr. Sears to figure out balancing fat, carbs and protein, is really beyond brilliant. It is a milestone in diet history. I go over people's diet/emotional journals. Mostly all the time, we discover that the fatigue, irritability, unstable emotions were due to the imbalance in their diet. Using the Zone to balance them out, helps control weight, roller coaster emotions and gives them energy. Dr. Sears is so right when he says food is medicine. He has figured out the most powerful drug combination going, called The Zone.
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