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Subject: On the subject of ATP and fat as a "High Octane Fuel"

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Matthew User is Offline
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Zoner
Zoner

04/16/2009 2:47 PM
Me, on the other hand, I have plenty of time for this nonsense seeing as how I have been in bed for about a week with the flu...

Cranberrycat User is Offline
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Zone Expert

04/16/2009 3:08 PM
Ohh, that doesn't paint a very sexy picture!

BTW, it is definitely not nonsense. It is very good discussion, just wish that Sue would tell us what she thinks we are missing!

Cranberrycat

We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.


sue User is Offline
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Zoner
Zoner

04/16/2009 3:36 PM
Matt,

(((quick healing vibes))) coming your way. Had that a while back and it is NOT fun. I too love this discussion and find it very helpful.

Sue - we'd still love to hear what you feel is missing.

sue

I don't know about the future, but I know who holds the future....
Matthew User is Offline
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Zoner
Zoner

04/16/2009 4:00 PM
***just wish that Sue would tell us what she thinks we are missing!***

Me too. Because when I read Dr. Sears more closely, it seems like he is actually saying exactly the same thing I am saying with regards to ATP production from carbs versus fat (although he is using round numbers instead of the more precise numbers I am using).

BTW, I was poking around doing some research on the issue of protein requirements for elite strength athletes. Some of the top research in the field comes from Dr. Lemon out of Kent State University, and it is on the basis of some of his research that many of the recommendations regarding 1.0g of protein per lb of LBM come from.

But I was reading a critique of some of the research with respect to the protein requirements of elite strength athletes. The critique concerns the fact that the research appears to focus primarily on nitrogen retention, and that while nitrogen retention is certainly one factor concerning protein requirements, it is a mistake to assume it is the only factor that determines how high your protein consumption should be and then when these other factors (hormonal and otherwise) are taken into consideration, the optimal levels of protein consumption for elite strength athletes are actually about 40% too low.

I may start another thread about how much protein strength athletes should be consuming to optimize results in another thread when I feel I have enough mastery of the subject matter to discuss it. However, the more I look into the subject matter, the more I realize that there is still a great deal of debate about how much protein is optimal. 1.0 g/lb might end up being right, but as the field of research continues to grow, it might turn out that it was too conservative.

I will tell you this... through years of trial and error a lot of practitioners and coaches have figured out what is optimal in terms of training and diet (and even in terms of illegal performance enhancing drug use). Science has often come along later and confirmed what practitioners already knew and what they have been doing for years. I am not saying that it hasn't gone the other way too and that science has discovered something that causes changes in training and nutrition, but generally speaking, in many ways, athletes already know what works, whether or not science has figured out a way to measure and test it yet.

One of the things that practitioners have figured out is that diets to support increases in lean mass for serious athletes training rigorously usually look at 1g/lb of protein per day as a minimum amount, not a maximum or even optimal amount. Precisely where the optimal amount is may be years away from precise scientific knowledge, but there is mounting evidence that it is significantly more than 1g/lb., at least for some small group of particular athletes.
sue User is Offline
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Zoner
Zoner

04/16/2009 4:41 PM
Matt:

I would love to see a thread on protein for the elite athlete. It is an interesting field of study and I wish I had more time to devote to it, but I currently do not. If you fish anything out, please do share.

I also agree that most practitioners know what works for their clients and each of them are different as well.

sue

I don't know about the future, but I know who holds the future....
Karen User is Offline
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Zoner
Zoner

04/17/2009 2:50 AM
Sorry to hear you are sick, Sexy PL Matt. Hope you feel better soon.

BTW, I agree with CC and sue ... this is not nonsense and it's very interesting!

Happy Zoning!
Karen
Matthew User is Offline
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Zoner
Zoner

04/17/2009 9:31 AM
Thanks for the well-wishes.

I am mostly just tired right now, but out of the worst of it.
sue User is Offline
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Zoner
Zoner

04/17/2009 1:43 PM
Matt - glad to hear you are on the mend.

sue

I don't know about the future, but I know who holds the future....
Karen User is Offline
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Zoner
Zoner

04/17/2009 5:15 PM
Glad to hear it, Matt!

Happy Zoning!
Karen
Steve User is Offline
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04/20/2009 7:55 AM
Hi Everyone: I sent the this thread over to Dr. Sears and he decided to comment directly. He's traveling quite a bit right now so I can't say that he will be able to engage in too much back and forth on the forums. I've cut and pasted his email reply to the ATP threads. Here it is:

FROM DR. BARRY SEARS:
“ I have read with great interest the various discussions in the forums about dietary calories and ATP production. Since biochemistry is much more complex than many realize, so let me provide a short overview. First dietary calories are defined as the amount of energy released in converting a carbon containing compound (glucose, fat or protein) into CO2 and H20 in a combustion chamber. Theoretically, those calories can be made into chemical energy (ATP). However, the biochemistry is more complex. To convert glucose into ATP requires three distinct biochemical steps: (1) the breakdown of glucose into pyruvate, (2) the conversion of pyruvate into acetyl CoA via the Krebs cycle (the greatest fear of any medical student), and (3) the conversion of products of the Krebs cycle (NADH and FADH2) into their precursors (NAD and FAD) in the electron transport chain of the mitochrondria thereby generating ATP. It is in the last step that most of the ATP is formed from glucose. If everything is working smoothly (active enzymes, high levels of oxygen, not taking into account the amount of energy require to break bonds of dietary carbohydrate for absorportion, etc), then 1 molecule of glucose could generate 36 molecules of ATP. The key is the Krebs cycle since it operates on any two-carbon fragment in the form of acetyl-CoA. Glucose has 3 such 2-carbon fragments. A typical fatty has 9 such 2-carbon fragments (assuming 18 carbon atoms per fatty acid molecule). Without going into nuances such beta oxidation in peroxisomes, it means that a typical fatty acid molecule can generate 3 times more ATP than a glucose molecule on a gram basis. This is where I get my 3 times greater ATP production from a gram of fat compared to a gram of carbohydrate. If one wishes to convert this to ATP production per dietary calorie, then you would divide 3 by 2.25 (9 calories per gram of fat divided by 4 calories per gram of carbohydrate). So on a dietary calorie basis, one calorie of fat should produce 33% more ATP than one calorie of carbohydrate. This still makes fat high octane fuel compared to glucose even when comparing calories to calories. Considering that the body can store only limited amount of glucose as glycogen compared to unlimited amounts of fat, the amount of total energy available to humans to make ATP from fat is massive compared to that from glucose."

- Dr. Barry Sears

Cranberrycat User is Offline
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04/20/2009 9:08 AM
Thank you, Steve!

Yes, it is a bit confusing, would almost have to be a medical student or biochem in order to really understand it all. Probaby why many of us just take it for face value!

Please tell Barry that we really do appreciate his response, and that sometimes it would be helpful for forum members to have more opportunity to interact.

Cranberrycat

We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.


Matthew User is Offline
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Zoner

04/20/2009 9:29 AM
Thank you Steve. This is interesting, because it does conflict with 2 or 3 biochemistry textbooks I looked at which indicate that the ratio between ATP that can be produced is the same as the ratio between calories. I will be interested to see if Dr. Sears joins the discussion when he is done traveling and can explain the discrepancy.
Cranberrycat User is Offline
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04/20/2009 9:40 AM
Yes, it would be helpful to have more discussion.

Cranberrycat

We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.


Matthew User is Offline
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Zoner

04/20/2009 12:31 PM
I seem to get two different numbers for how much ATP is generated from oxidative glycolysis. Some sources say 36 ATP and some say 38 (and I found one that said 39) and I don't understand enough biochemistry (or really any) to know why there is a discrepancy between those numbers.

As far as ATP production from fat, apparently (from what I can tell) the amount of ATP that can be produced varies with the type of fat, because some fats have longer chains than others. I am lead to believe from what I have read, that the fats in human beings are triglycerides. I have seen varying amounts of ATP production depending on which type of fat is used. A recent search I did for ATP production from Beta Oxidation shows a range of between 106-129 ATP. I read another source that estimates that based on the average make up of fat in the human body, 138 ATP can be produced (which, if that is correct and the other numbers are correct, would mean that almost 4x as much ATP can be produced from fat as from carbohydrate sources).

I gotta say that after reading all of this stuff, my head is swimming and I am beyond confused.
Cranberrycat User is Offline
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04/20/2009 12:38 PM
Do you think we are over our heads in this? LOL!

So, if Sears is right (and from what you posted, he may have even underestimated it), then where does that leave us with regard to athletes and their energy source?

If athletes can get 3-4x the ATP from fat, then do they really need additional calories, as was discussed? Or, would you think that the Zone IS providing adequate energy supply from from fat?

Personally, I can't speak about what type of fat produces more ATP, but I know that Sears advocates for monounsaturated sources.

Cranberrycat

We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.


Matthew User is Offline
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Zoner

04/20/2009 1:01 PM
Assuming that athletes can get 3x the ATP from fat sources as from carb sources, and considering the fact that fat has about 2.5x the amount of calories, that would mean that fat is 20% more efficient than carbs.

So, if we take someone with daily calorie requirements of 3,200 calories, and assume that eating a Zone diet without any additional fat blocks provides 2,000 calories, that means that I supposed the 1,200 calories short fall could be met by eating 1,000 calories of fat, I suppose.

So, the upshot is that while it may make a difference of a few hundred calories, athletes still need more calories/energy than is provided by meals made up of 1 block each of fat + carbs + protein (at 1 g/lb.)
sue User is Offline
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Zoner
Zoner

04/20/2009 2:39 PM
Whew - thought I was confused before. This is really interesting stuff. It will be interesting to hear about the discrepancies that you found Matt. However I agree, that more total calories would still be needed by the high performance athlete.

sue

I don't know about the future, but I know who holds the future....
Cranberrycat User is Offline
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04/20/2009 3:12 PM
Going back to the basic zone principles:

Assuming that the athlete is taking in enough protein to meet their needs, then it would also be assumed that the carbohydrate intake is adequate, as well (keep in mind the protein/carb ratio of 0.6-1.0, there is some leeway in the zone). Then, at this point, it isn't about eating more fat to reach a caloric goal. It is about fine-tuning the diet for the sake of performance. Since it is assumed that fat would produce 3-4x as much ATP as carb, then it would stand to reason that the caloric needs are lower.

So, it sounds to me that an athlete would go through the same steps as anyone to fine-tune and adjust their diet according to LBM, hormonal control, and fat adjustments. The thing that differs is that I think there is potential for the athlete to have more radical changes than a less active person.

I like to keep in mind that the human body varies from one to another, and we all don't operate under the same exact mathematical formula.


Cranberrycat

We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.


Sue K User is Online
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04/20/2009 4:21 PM
Matt!

Glad you were able to gain clarification by contacting Zone Labs!

sue

Lost 100 lbs 14 yrs ago, off BP meds, thanks to the Zone diet and Zone fish oil!


To view my before/after pics and meal photos scroll over this picture and click when the link appears.

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Kevin User is Offline
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Aspiring

04/21/2009 9:41 AM
I read the first Zone book 7 or 8 years ago. And remember that part about a marathon requiring 2000 calories. So the average athlete with 5-10% body fat could run a dozen marathons. But it doesn't happen in the real world, only on the chalkboard. I know because I've run over 40 marathons. I've run marathons while in ketosis, the state of not having any stored carbs (glycogen) available. The problem as I see it is the krebs cycle requires a small amount of sugar to keep spinning. "Fat burns in a carb flame"

Running slowly needs less sugar to augment the krebs cycle than sprinting does. Heart rate determines how much sugar is needed. Training reduces the amount of sugar required. That's how the Kenyans can run marathons below a 5:00 pace.

When you are out of glycogen--ketosis--the body goes into gluconeogenesis. That's when muscle tissue is catabolized to make sugar. So you can never get to the point of burning 100% fat. Running with a 100% fat meal in the stomach won't work. I know, I tried it with dismal results. The body still requires glucose for Krebs to work efficiently.

As I've gotten older and slower, I've moved on to ultras: 50 to 100 mile races. Because it's an even slower pace, even less sugar is needed but it's needed nonetheless. Carb and protein each have 4 calories per gram while fat has nine cals per gram. So on the chalkboard fat has more than double the potential energy of either carb or protein. But that doesn't translate into more or better ATP.

I've come to realize I need to lift weights. I was an 1100-pound powerlifter when I was a kid. I quit lifting sometime in the college years and never went back, prefering to run for health. A couple days ago I tried some pushups and found I could only to 30. 30! Lifting weights, at least upper body weights, doesn't speed up the heart much so it's essentially a fat-burning exercise. It kills me to have to spend time in a gym when the weather is perfect for running right now.

kevin
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Dr. Barry Sears, PhD.Dr. Barry Sears is a leading authority on the dietary control of hormonal response. A former research scientist at the Boston University School of Medicine and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Dr. Sears has dedicated his research efforts over the past 30 years to the study of lipids. He holds 13 U.S. Patents in the areas of intravenous drug delivery systems and hormonal regulation for the treatment of cardiovascular disease.

A turning point in his research occurred in 1982. That year, the Nobel Prize in Medicine was awarded for discoveries of the role that specialized hormones, known as eicosanoids, play in the development of cardiovascular disease, diabetes, auto-immune diseases, and cancer. Since eicosanoids are only generated from dietary fat, Dr. Sears reasoned that one could apply intravenous drug delivery principles to nutrition in order to control these exceptionally powerful hormonal responses with laser-like precision. In essence, his approach treats food as if it were a drug.

This area of his research led to various patents in the area of hormonal control by essentially using food as an oral drug delivery system to modulate eicosanoids especially for cardiovascular, diabetic, and neurological patients.

The impact of Dr. Sears’ revolutionary work in the dietary control of hormonal response began with the publication of his landmark book, The Zone. Since its publication in June 1995, The Zone has sold more than 2,000,000 hardcover copies, and became a #1 best seller on the New York Times book list. In addition, The Zone has been translated into 22 languages indicating a worldwide response to Dr. Sears’ research. His second book, Mastering the Zone, published in 1997, also became a New York Times bestseller with hardcover sales in excess of 500,000 copies to date. His third book, Zone Perfect Meals in Minutes, published in 1997, quickly became one of the best-selling cookbooks of 1997 and an another New York Times bestseller. The Anti-Aging Zone was published in 1999 and provides the molecular insights into how the Zone Diet can reverse the aging process. The Omega Rx Zone, published in 2002, explores the molecular foundation of chronic disease and how high-dose fish oil can dramatically reverse it. His latest book The Anti-Inflammation Zone discusses how to combat silent inflammation in order to reduce the risk of cancer, heart disease, diabetes, dementia, and many other inflammatory conditions—and how to reverse these conditions if they are already present. To date more than 5 million hardcover copies of his Zone books have been sold in the United States.

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