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Subject: SS and the Zone

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Gavin User is Offline
Posts:14
Aspiring
Aspiring

04/05/2009 11:56 PM
Hi.

I am very new to the Zone diet and would just like to know if my plan will work.

I am currently on the Starting Strength program, but I am not consuming the calories that he advises.

I am around 18% bodyfat and am afraid to add more fat, which will more than likely happen drinking a gallon of milk a day.

I have read that Rip advises to do the Zone and Crossfit for a couple of months and then start his program as advised, but I have wasted many years training, choosen stupid programs and exersices.

I just want to perfect my form in the 5 basic lifts and aim to add weight each week.

After a couple more weeks on the program I am going to add a day or two of Metcon.

Would training this way while on the Zone diet to strip fat work, or should my workouts change.

Manythanks.
Matthew User is Offline
Posts:174
Zoner
Zoner

04/06/2009 10:08 AM
Coach Rippetoe only really recommends the "gallon of milk a day" advice for underweight teens who cannot seem to gain weight no matter what they do. So called hard-gainers like this are only hard-gainers because they are not consuming enough food to support muscle growth.

I have exchanged e-mails with coach Rippetoe before and e-mailed and spoken on the phone with his partner, coach Pendlay. I also have several of his books and read a lot of his material on the Internet as well. I have never seen coach Rippetoe recommend doing crossfit for a few months before beginning starting strength. Starting strength is a program for novices and doesn't need a several month breaking in period... it is the breaking in period that will get you results quickly and get you ready to tackle intermediate level programs. Crossfit has some good points and bad points, IMO. It is basically GPP training (general physical preparation) that makes you a jack-of-all-trades-but-master-of-none. That can be good or bad depending on your goals (I have other more specific criticisms of CF, but that is for another day). The bottom line is that you can start right away with the Starting Strength program.

Starting strength can generally be used as a training program for around 6 months (as long as you are doing it correctly, not getting too greedy in adding weight, pushing hard, doing the resets properly, etc.). Some will be able to continue to see gains on it for longer than others. Some are ready for a new program after 3 months, some can stay on it up to around 9 months, but 6 months is a pretty good average of the time it will take you to progress from novice to intermediate. And please note, the Starting Strength plan is a beginner's plan... that is who it is designed for and that is who it will benefit. When out outlives its usefulness (and it will), it is time to move on to a different training program.

BTW, after a few weeks of adjustment, I would only add a single day of metabolic conditioning to begin with (to see how your body reacts to it). If you are doing a M-W-F lifting schedule, Sat would be the perfect day to do it. If you are responding well and the conditioning isn't negatively impacting you strength increases, you might consider a less intensive metabolic conditioning day on Tuesday. But bear in mind that whatever conditioning you do on Tuesday will have to be lower intensity because you are lifting on Wednesday, so HIIT training is probably out of the question. You may find that you don't need to add the Tuesday session at all and that Saturday will suffice.

At your level, you can both lose fat and gain muscle while on starting strength and the Zone. As the weights get heavier and your body fat gets lower, however, you may find that you are not getting enough calories from the Zone to support your activity levels and might consider adding additional calories in order to continue supporting muscle growth and recovery.

I am a big proponent of the types of training programs that Coaches Rippetoe & Pendlay promote... simple full-body training programs with only a few basic barbell exercises centered around variations of the squat, push variations, pull variations, pulling from the floor, upper body pulls, and core work. Those are your biggest bang for the buck exercises. My strength training programs (for myself), although more complex in terms of the planning, use pretty much the same exercises (just with greater variation of the reps and set schemes and intensity used).

Out of curiosity, there are a lot of variations of "Starting Strength" floating around on the Internet, which one are you using?

The variation that I recommend (at least until your first stall out) is as follows:

Workout A
1. Back Squat 3x5
2. Bench Press 3x5
3. Deadlift 1x5

Workout B
1. Back Squats 3x5
2. Standing Press 3x5
3. Cleans 5x3

After maybe a month you can start adding some auxiliary exercises like abdominal training and pullups or chins (these are the most important auxiliary exercises). I know there are variations of the Starting Strength program that recommend "Pendlay Rows" in place of the cleans, but I think the rows are a poor substitute for the cleans (although rows are a very good auxiliary exercise). If you don't have the technical skills or access to decent coaching to be able to clean correctly, I suppose you can substitute in chins or pullups in place of the cleans. Once you are able to get over 10 reps and on any one of your sets in the pullups/chins then you can start adding weight to every other workout so that you are in the 5-7 rep range.
Gavin User is Offline
Posts:14
Aspiring
Aspiring

04/06/2009 12:02 PM
Thanks Matthew for the reply.

This is the link for the interview between coach Rip and T nation, where he advises about doing Crossfit and the Zone.
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/starting_strength

I think a lot of people (including myself) get confused with the meaning of beginner and novice.

I have been working out (not necessarily weight training) for a total of 15 years and weight training for about 6/7 years.

I have not done the right things and gone from program to program without reaching any goals.

I would still class myself as a novice from the weight I lift and from the little amount I have achieved over this time.

I wasn't going to use Crossfit as a breaking in routine, it's just that I realise that some programs are more geared towards fat loss and as coach Rip advised, I though I would ask about it.

I have to admit that I haven't read every part of the book as I just wanted to get started on it.

Due to this I always get confused when I read about how long to stay on it.

I can remember reading Beyond Brawn and Stuart Mcrobert states That you should choose the big basic exercises and a few accessory ones and concentrate on poundage progression.

Why couldn't someone stay on this for longer periods and just use micro loading to continue to progress.

Can you tell me if the advice for GOMAD is only for underweight trainees to help add bulk or does it affect you strength levels a lot aswell.

When I read about how much weight Rip advises to add each session and for how long I thought it would be immpossible.

I have never tested how stronger I was from eating large amounts of calories per day for more than a few days.

From what I have read the extra calories also make you stronger at every workout.

My plan was to drop about 14lbs of fat and then do the program including the GOMAD.

At the moment I am just increasing the weight every week, not every session.

I'll hopefully lose the fat within 8/12 weeks, but by that time I should have technique on each exercise perfect.

I'll do as you advise and have 3 workouts plus one metcon session the day after the third workout.

With the new diet changes this should take care of at least 1lb of fat per week.

Any other advice would be appreciated.

Thanks for your time.
Matthew User is Offline
Posts:174
Zoner
Zoner

04/06/2009 3:55 PM
Okay, here is a brief overview of the Starting Strength Program:

It is for people who are novices to weight training, for people coming back to weight training after a long lay-off, for people who have never really lifted seriously, or for people who have training primarily on machines.

It uses strict linear progression, meaning your weights go up from workout to workout, using 3 base exercises per session. You train on 3 non-consecutive days per week.

Here are your major options for your first program on Starting Strength:

Option #1

Monday
1. Back Squat 3x5
2. Bench Press/Press 3x5
3. Chin-ups 3xAMAP

Wednesday
1. Back Squat 3x5
2. Bench Press/Press 3x5
3. Deadlifts 1x5

Friday
1. Back Squat 3x5
2. Bench Press/Press 3x5
3. Pullups 3xAMAP

Option #2 (performed A-B-A for week #1 and B-A-B week #2, then back to A-B-A and so forth)

Workout A
1. Back Squat 3x5
2. Bench Press 3x5
3. Deadlifts 1x5

Workout B
1. Back Squat 3x5
2. Bench Press/Press 3x5
3. Chins 3xAMP

Option #3 (if you know how to clean properly)

Workout A
1. Back Squat 3x5
2. Bench Press 3x5
3. Deadlifts 1x5

Workout B
1. Back Squat 3x5
2. Bench Press/Press 3x5
3. Cleans 5x3

As you can see, you squat 3x per week under all 3 options. You deadlift either once a week (Option #1) or alternating between 1 & 2 times per week (Options #2 & #3). Under all 3 options, you will alternate bench pressing with pressing, so you will do each 3x every two weeks. You will either clean or do chins 3x every 2 weeks under options #2 and #3. Under option #1 you do pullups and chins 1x per week each.

In the beginning, as in day 1, you will really just be using the bar and working on form. The next day you train, you can increase the weight by 15-20 lbs in the deadlift, 10-15 lbs. in the squat and 5-10 lbs. in the bench press, press and cleans. Chins and pullups are done with bodyweight for as many reps as you can get until you are able to get at least 10 reps on your first set. Once you are able to do this, you can add some weight to every other chin/pullup workout so that you are working in the 5-7 rep range for all 3 sets.

If you start with JUST THE BAR, you will be able to see steady progress at the large increases for around 4 weeks or so. After that, you will probably have to drop the increases to roughly 50%. After another 3-4 more weeks, the rate of increase will probably drop in 1/2 again.

So, let's say you start with Option #2.

In your first 4 weeks, you will squat 12 times. Your first workout will be with the bar. Let's say you add 10 lbs. to the bar every workout. Workout #1 will be 45 lbs. 3-4 weeks later, you will be squatting 3x5 at 125-155 lbs. After that, you might need to drop the rate of increase in 1/2 to 5 lbs. 3-4 weeks later you will be squatting around 170-215 for 3x5. After that, as the weight gets heavier and heavier, if you are able to microload, you might increase by only 2.5 lbs. per workout on squats, which perhaps you will be able to sustain for another 3-4 weeks, which would put your range of squatting at around 192.5-245 9-12 weeks later. The key is not to get greedy jumping up from workout to workout to keep progress moving.

Eventually you will hit a point where you are missing lifts and not getting all the reps of all the sets. When this happens, you repeat the weight again and do not increase (this is also a good time to start decreasing the rate of increase). If you get just one more rep next workout, you have made progress... and if that means you got all your reps of all your sets, that means increasing the weight. But sometimes, you may not be able to get another rep. When this happens, try one more time with the same weight and if you cannot get another rep (3 workouts with the same weight without an increase in reps), it is time for a backing off period. If the stall out happens to be on your squats (as opposed to the other lifts) it also means you need to change your program slightly.

Here is an example of how it would work. Let's say that you are doing option #2 and stall out on squats at 200 lbs. You get 13 reps total 3 workouts in a row and simply cannot get another rep. Take 90% of that number (180 lbs.) and this will be the weight you will use. Try to build back up to the weight you missed over 2-3 weeks. Also, because we stalled out on the squat, we need to change the program slightly.

Now the program might look like this:

Monday
Back Squat 3x5
Bench/Press 3x5
Chins 3xAMAP

Wednesday
Front Squats 3x5
Bench/Press 3x5
Deadlifts 1x5

Friday
Back Squats 3x5
Bench/Press 3x5
Pullups 3xAMAP

(another option is to alternate deadlifting one week with cleaning the next week so that you deadlift only 1x every two weeks)

You will notice that you are only back squatting 2x per week instead of 3x now. The front squat workout on Wednesday will start with the bar, just like you did on day one with squats. Because the front squat doesn't allow you to handle as much weight as the back squat, this will help deload you a bit and give you more rest between heavy squat workouts (since you are getting stronger and now need more recovery time to demonstrate increased strength).

So, after stalling out and resetting, you squat workouts might look like this: Week 1: 180, 185, Week 2: 190, 195, Week 3: 200, 202.5.

So you ramp back up to 200 lbs., which you should be able to get this time with a small back off period, and continue on with your linear progression (using smaller increments of increase). So, after stalling out after 3-4 months, you would build back up over 2-3 weeks and keep going for as long as you can. You might be able to get another 3 weeks of steady increases before starting miss reps again and then another few weeks after that before you genuinely stall again. So first reset you do (at least with squats, the other exercise might be resetting more frequently or not need one for that matter) might lead to another 6-9 weeks on your new program before you completely stall again. Once you stall a second time on squats, it might be worth one more reset and build back up again, or you may be ready for your first true intermediate training program. If you do a second reset, you might get at most another 6 weeks (including the backing off period) before you a third stall.

At this point, you have milked everything you possibly can out of simple linear progression programming and need to start using a slightly more complex form of programming to continue to see progress (that takes into account your increased need for recovery from heavy weights and need for greater variation of loading parameters) in order to spur progress.

If you are just an athlete who used to train at a high level and hasn't trained for a long time, this whole process might occur in 6-9 weeks before moving onto an intermediate program. If you are a complete novice teenage boy who has never touched a weight before, it might be 6-9 months. There is obviously a lot of room between those two extremes.

Frankly, just follow the Zone diet and you will lose plenty of bodyfat on this program. If you drop the weight quickly, but the muscle isn't coming along that quickly, start adding some extra calories. First, start with a post workout meal (which I have discussed in another thread). Later, you might add either some additional blocks or just additional fat blocks to make sure you are supplying your body with enough calories to effectively build muscle. However, at 18% BF, you should be able to both gain muscle and lose fat at the same time for a while. When your BF levels start getting close to single digits, this will become more difficult to do, but for now, it shouldn't be a problem.

Personally, I am not a big fan of the GOMOD advice, unless you are a very skinny teenage boy who cannot gain weight no matter what he does. I think this is just way too many calories to consume. I also am very anti-milk for various health reasons unless you have access to raw milk. Store-bought milk is usually full of all sorts of hormones. Even so-called organic milk (albeit a little healthier for you) is still a fairly unhealthy food. Pasteurized and homogenized milk isn't that good for you. Raw milk, OTOH, is very healthy for you. Plus, drinking a GOMOD, even with skim milk, is adding about 1,440 calories per day to your diet. That is an awful lot. Now, my caloric requirements are around 3,200 cal/day and the "basic" zone only gives me about 2,000 cal/day. So if I did that, I would be getting enough food to support my activity levels plus a small surplus for gaining muscle, but most people don't have the high activity levels I do and all those excess calories will just end up around your waist. It is better to incrementally add in extra calories, see how your body is handling it for 2-3 weeks, reassess, and adjust accordingly, in small increments (like 200-300 calories at a time). I am not a fan of extreme overeating for muscle gains any more than I am a fan of extreme undereating for fat loss.

Anyway, these are my thoughts.
Gavin User is Offline
Posts:14
Aspiring
Aspiring

04/07/2009 3:25 AM
Thanks Matthew.

I have just gone into my third week on SS.

I first used it about 2 months ago for a few weeks and really enjoyed doing basic barbell movements.

I have never liked Squats and always found reasons not to do them, but once you know the correct technique they are great.

I do.

Squats
Press
Deadlift

Squats
Bench press
Cleans

I overlooked the part about starting the program with an empty bar and building up from there.

When I first tried it, it took 3 weeks for me to get up to heavy weights, where I would not have been able to add weight at each session.

I am now back to that point after only 2 weeks.

My current lifts are:

Squat 105k (I can still increase on this weight)
Deadlifts 130k (I can still increase on this weight)
Bench press 82.5k (getting near my maximum)
Clean 75k (getting near my maximum)
press 65k (getting near my maximum)

I realise that in a calorie defecit I am not going to add much weight, so my main concern is maintaining the muscle I have whilst reducing bodyfat.

I have never tried a bilking stage, so I don't know how the extra calories effects strength on a weekly basis.

I'm not sure how my body reacts with weight gain when I am training consistently log term as I am not very consistent and sometimes take weeks at a time off.

Once I lose the fat, I was thinking of having about 400ml of semi skim milk
with each meal just to boost the calories up a bit.

I'll see how I go and if I notice that I'm adding fat I can just reduce it.

The main problem I have (like most people) is that I'm never consistent with either nutrition or diet, so it's difficult to read my body.

This is one thing that I want to get over.

Thanks.
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Advantages

  • Delivers clinically proven health benefits from the omega-3 fatty acids EPA and DHA*
  • Promotes a healthy heart, healthy brain, healthy immune system, healthy circulatory system, healthy joints, healthy moods, healthy triglyceride levels and a healthy pregnancy*
  • Combats silent inflammation

 

*These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration.

These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

 

 

 

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