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Subject: L-Glutamine + BCCA´s

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Matthew User is Offline
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04/05/2009 3:15 PM
Jeffrey:

One of the reasons I mention the high GI carbs is to point out that there are not always contra-indicated for athletes. Sometimes they have a distinct benefit. Certainly during an endurance race is one such time, but it is not the only such time that high GI carbs can be beneficial. I am glad that you are open-minded enough to give it a go yourself.

One of the recommendation that I have read is 0.8g of high GI carbs for every KG of body weight. I think you mentione that your BFP was 9% so that means your body weight is around 162? That is roughly 74 kg. Multiplied by 0.8 that comes out to roughly 60g of high GI carbs. At a 4:1 ratio, that means 15g of easily digestible protein. The meal should be minimal in fat. This meal should ideally be consumed in the first 15 minutes post workout. That makes this meal roughly 300 calories. Given that you told me that you presently eat around the 2,000 calorie range (sometime more, sometimes less) assuming you add this post workout meal to what you are already eating (and don't cut back on other meals), I am willing to bet you will notice a that you are gaining muscle at a great rate than you have thus far.

Give it a fair go (and give it enough time to work) and I will be interested to hear back what your experiences are.

By the way, if you are particularly insensitive to insulin, you may want to adjust the ratio of carbs to protein down from 4:1 down to 2:1. That would make you post w/o drink/meal 60g of carbs and 30g of protein (360 calories). Or you could keep the protein at 15g and decrease the carbs to 30g. That makes your post w/o meal only 180 extra calories. personally I think the first option is the better one. An extra 360 calories three days per week (on workout days) could support hypothetically an additional 1/3 or so of a lb. of muscle per week. Of course some of that will be lost due to the thermogenic effects of feeding. If I recall correctly, you mentioned that you had gained somewhere in the order of 2 lb. of muscle in 7-8 weeks (I may be wrong about the numbers you posted). So we are talking about possibly doubling the rate at which you gain muscle, at least in the short term (remember, the further away you are from your genetic max the easier it is to gain muscle, and the closer you get, the harder it is to gain muscle).

Bottom line is that I think if you give it a solid month and keep giving it your all in the gym, you will be very happy with the results.

Thanks for having an open mind.
Sue K User is Online
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04/05/2009 3:15 PM
Thanks Jeffrey!

sue

Lost 100 lbs 14 yrs ago, off BP meds, thanks to the Zone diet and Zone fish oil!


To view my before/after pics and meal photos scroll over this picture and click when the link appears.

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Matthew User is Offline
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04/05/2009 3:16 PM
Sorry Sue, perhaps I my recollection is incorrect, but I thought you had mentioned in a different thread that you thought my suggestions regarding post workout nutrition were not a good idea. If I had you confused with someone else, I apologize.
Sue K User is Online
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04/05/2009 5:20 PM
No worries! I just thought you were maybe confusing me with another person.

sue

Lost 100 lbs 14 yrs ago, off BP meds, thanks to the Zone diet and Zone fish oil!


To view my before/after pics and meal photos scroll over this picture and click when the link appears.

Zone Dinner Party (link)
Cranberrycat User is Offline
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04/05/2009 10:51 PM
Well, maybe Sue is referring to me when she talks about the other person who was challenging Matthew earlier in this thread?

I like to keep my mind open about the whole thing, and I really think that the dialogue is good here.

Sue, wasn't it YOU that posted the information about how athletes tend to have a hard time with the thought of burning fat for ATP rather than carbs? I think that this is what Matthew is talking about.

Frankly, I see a bunch of discrepencies between some of the statements that Sears has written on this subject--although I must admit that I had never really given it much thought, since it really didn't concern me (not being a hard core athlete). Makes me wonder if Matthew is on to something here.

Sue, question directed to you, here it is, do you think that elevating insulin levels by consuming a 4:1 carb to protein snack is a good idea after an intense workout? I guess I am really interested in hearing what you have to say about it, since I know that you generally lean to the side of doing everything possible to decrease inflammation in the body. So, what IS your opinion on that?

I already got a response from the Zone Labs team on this question, so please let us know what you think!

Cranberrycat

We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.


Cranberrycat User is Offline
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04/07/2009 12:07 PM
I think Sue missed my previous post, so I just wanted to post a reply, to bring back to the top of the list.

Some additional information, I had sent a Zone Chat request to see if anyone from the Zone could comment on the elevation of insulin after an intense workout. Well, they had actually commented that this insulin elevation INHIBITS muscle synthesis! I had emailed back asking if they could give me some references to support that. Just got an email back, and the only suggestion was to do my own search on Pubmed.

I would have thought that Zone Labs could give me the references to support their statements. Sorry if it sounds like I am bashing Zone Labs, but I am a bit frustrated at the moment!

Going back to my previous post, NO PRESSURE Sue! I am interested in your opinion on the subject. Matthew and I already know where we stand on the subject!

Cranberrycat

We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.


Matthew User is Offline
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04/07/2009 12:21 PM
"Matthew and I already know where we stand on the subject!"

Really?

I thought my subtle writing style and passive nature hid my views.

LOL!

You should ask the Zone labs about the following study:

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/haycock/insulin-anabolic.htm

Insulin and Muscle Growth

Human Studies Finally Show Insulin to Be Extremely Anabolic in Human Muscle Tissue -- In Vivo

by Hypertrophy

Extreme hyperinsulinemia unmasks insulin's effect to stimulate protein synthesis in human forearm.

Researchers: Teresa A. Hillier, David A. Fryburg, Linda A. Jahn, and Eugene J. Barrett Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, and General Clinical Research Center, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908

Source: Am. J. Physiol. 274 (Endocrinol. Metab. 37): E1067-E1074, 1998

Summary: In 14 healthy volunteers, forearm insulin concentrations were raised 1,000-fold above basal levels while maintaining euglycemia for 4 h. Amino acids (AA) were given to either maintain basal arterial (n = 4) or venous plasma (n = 6) AA or increment arterial plasma AA by 100% (n = 4) in the forearm. Measurements were taken of forearm muscle glucose, lactate, oxygen, phenylalanine balance, and ΑH]phenylalanine kinetics at baseline and at 4 h of insulin infusion.

Results: Extreme hyperinsulinemia strongly reversed postabsorptive (fasting) muscle's phenylalanine balance from a net release to an uptake. This marked anabolic effect resulted from a dramatic stimulation of protein synthesis and a modest decline in protein degradation. Furthermore, this effect was seen even when basal arterial or venous aminoacidemia was maintained. With marked hyperinsulinemia, protein synthesis increased further when plasma AA concentrations were also increased. Forearm blood flow rose at least two fold with the combined insulin and AA infusion, and this was consistent in all groups. These results demonstrate an effect of high concentrations of insulin to markedly stimulate muscle protein synthesis in vivo in adults, even when AA concentrations are not increased. This is similar to prior in vitro reports but distinct from physiological hyperinsulinemia in vivo where stimulation of protein synthesis does not occur. Therefore, the current findings suggest that the differences in insulin concentrations used in prior studies may largely explain the previously reported discrepancy between insulin action on protein synthesis in adult muscle in vivo vs. in vitro.

Discussion: Insulin is an obvious topic of interest among the largest physiques in the culture of bodybuilding. In my search for definitive answers as to the anabolic potential of exogenous insulin administration, I have been sorely disappointed in the lack of human studies showing the anabolic properties of insulin in adults. Many studies show insulin to slow protein break down but data showing insulin to be truly anabolic in muscle tissue was virtually non-existent. Despite this lack of clinical evidence, insulin use still pervades in bodybuilding.

There are a few things that need to be addressed when considering this study. First, the amount of insulin used in this study is extemely high. The quantities of insulin used are far above what should ever be attempted by bodybuilders. Second, the anabolic properties of extreme hyperinsulinemia are likely do to insulin's interaction with IGF-1 receptors, not traditional insulin receptors. Finally, the anabolic effects of extreme hyperinsulinemia were only seen with concomitant amino acid infusion. This means that if there are no amino acids floating around, you will not build muscle no matter how much insulin you are using.

The high levels of insulin used in this study are not practical for bodybuilders to consider using. The subjects blood glucose was kept constant through artificial means to prevent hypoglycemic coma. In other words kiddies, DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME! Besides the danger involved with raising insulin levels 1,000 times above normal without a controlled infusion of glucose, it isn't really necessary if you want to get an anabolic response. Think of what was done in this study like flooding the basement in order to water the lawn. The anabolic effects produced in this study were most likely due to excess insulin binding to hybrid IGF-1 receptors. The same effect through can be achieved without all the insulin by simply adding a little IGF-1. After all, you should always use the right tool for the job. I will admit that further research is necessary to further support my (and the authors of this study) assertions that the anabolic effect of insulin seen in this study was caused by interaction of insulin with IGF-1 receptors. Nevertheless, it would be nice to see bodybuilders use less insulin and perhaps begin to incorporate a mixture of compounds that more closely resembles the complex interaction of hormones which exist naturally in the body.
Cranberrycat User is Offline
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04/07/2009 1:09 PM
LOL!

Quite interesting.

Thanks for the article. I think that my "search" (if I ever get around to doing it) will be like fishing for a needle in a haystack.


Cranberrycat

We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.


Matthew User is Offline
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04/07/2009 1:21 PM
Some more studies to ask Zone labs about:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7860765

J Clin Invest. 1995 Feb;95(2):811-9.Click here to read Click here to read Links
Physiologic hyperinsulinemia stimulates protein synthesis and enhances transport of selected amino acids in human skeletal muscle.
Biolo G, Declan Fleming RY, Wolfe RR.

Department of Internal Medicine, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston.

We have investigated the mechanisms of the anabolic effect of insulin on muscle protein metabolism in healthy volunteers, using stable isotopic tracers of amino acids. Calculations of muscle protein synthesis, breakdown, and amino acid transport were based on data obtained with the leg arteriovenous catheterization and muscle biopsy. Insulin was infused (0.15 mU/min per 100 ml leg) into the femoral artery to increase femoral venous insulin concentration (from 10 +/- 2 to 77 +/- 9 microU/ml) with minimal systemic perturbations. Tissue concentrations of free essential amino acids decreased (P < 0.05) after insulin. The fractional synthesis rate of muscle protein (precursor-product approach) increased (P < 0.01) after insulin from 0.0401 +/- 0.0072 to 0.0677 +/- 0.0101%/h. Consistent with this observation, rates of utilization for protein synthesis of intracellular phenylalanine and lysine (arteriovenous balance approach) also increased from 40 +/- 8 to 59 +/- 8 (P < 0.05) and from 219 +/- 21 to 298 +/- 37 (P < 0.08) nmol/min per 100 ml leg, respectively. Release from protein breakdown of phenylalanine, leucine, and lysine was not significantly modified by insulin. Local hyperinsulinemia increased (P < 0.05) the rates of inward transport of leucine, lysine, and alanine, from 164 +/- 22 to 200 +/- 25, from 126 +/- 11 to 221 +/- 30, and from 403 +/- 64 to 595 +/- 106 nmol/min per 100 ml leg, respectively. Transport of phenylalanine did not change significantly. We conclude that insulin promoted muscle anabolism, primarily by stimulating protein synthesis independently of any effect on transmembrane transport.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15319361

Impaired anabolic response of muscle protein synthesis is associated with S6K1 dysregulation in elderly humans.
Guillet C, Prod'homme M, Balage M, Gachon P, Giraudet C, Morin L, Grizard J, Boirie Y.

Unité du Métabolisme Protéino-Energétique, UMR Université d'Auvergne/INRA, CRNH, Centre Hospitalier Universitaire, Clermont-Ferrand, France.

Age-related loss of muscle protein may involve a decreased response to anabolic factors of muscle protein synthesis through dysregulation of translation factors. To verify this hypothesis, we simultaneously investigated muscle protein synthesis and expression of some factors implicated in insulin signal transduction during hyperinsulinemia and hyperaminoacidemia in 6 young (25+/-1 year; mean+/-sem) and 8 elderly subjects (72+/-2 year). Incorporation of L-Ώ-13C] leucine in muscle proteins (fractional synthesis rate, FSR) was measured in vastus lateralis, before and during a euglycemic hyperinsulinemic hyperaminoacidemic clamp, together with Western blot analysis of protein kinase B (PKB), mTOR, 4E-BP1, and S6K1 phosphorylation. In basal state, muscle protein FSR was reduced in elderly in comparison with young subjects (0.061+/-0.004% per hour) vs 0.082+/-0.010% per hour, elderly vs. young, P<0.05). During clamp, muscle protein FSR was stimulated in young (0.119+/-0.006% per hour; P<0.05), but this response was significantly lower in elderly subjects (0.084+/-0.005% per hour, P<0.05 vs young subjects). Phosphorylation of PKB, mTOR, and 4E-BP1 were similarly increased by insulin and amino acid in both groups, except for S6K1 phosphorylation, which was not stimulated in elderly subjects. In conclusion, 1) response of muscle protein synthesis to insulin and amino acid is impaired in elderly humans; 2) a defect in S6K1 pathway activation may be responsible for this alteration. This modification is a mechanistic basis of sarcopenia development during aging.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15185208

J Pediatr Surg. 2004 Jun;39(6):839-44; discussion 839-44.Click here to read Links
Intravenous insulin decreases protein breakdown in infants on extracorporeal membrane oxygenation.
Agus MS, Javid PJ, Ryan DP, Jaksic T.

Department of Medicine, Children's Hospital Boston, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA 02115, USA.

BACKGROUND/PURPOSE: Infants requiring extracorporeal membrane oxygenation (ECMO) have the highest rates of protein catabolism ever reported. Recent investigations have found that such extreme protein breakdown is refractory to conventional nutritional management. In this pilot study, the authors sought to use the anabolic hormone insulin to reduce the profound protein degradation in this cohort. METHODS: Four parenterally fed infants on ECMO were enrolled in a prospective, randomized, crossover trial. Subjects were administered an insulin infusion using a 4-hour hyperinsulinemic euglycemic clamp followed by a control saline infusion on consecutive days in random order. Whole-body protein flux and breakdown were quantified using a primed continuous infusion of the stable isotope L-Ώ-13C]leucine. Statistical analyses were performed using paired t tests. RESULTS: Serum insulin levels were increased 15-fold during the insulin clamp compared with the saline control (407 +/- 103 v 26 +/- 12 microU/mL; P <.05). During the insulin infusion, infants had decreased rates of total leucine flux (214 +/- 25 v 298 +/- 38 micromol/kg/h; P <.05) and leucine flux derived from protein breakdown (156 +/- 40 v 227 +/- 54 micromol/kg/h; P <.05) when compared with saline control. Overall, insulin administration produced a 32% reduction in protein breakdown (P <.05). CONCLUSIONS: In this pilot study, the anabolic hormone insulin markedly reduced protein breakdown in critically ill infants on ECMO. Because elevated protein breakdown correlates with mortality and morbidity, the administration of intravenous insulin may ultimately have broad applicability to the metabolic management of critically ill infants.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14665444

Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Apr;286(4):E529-34. Epub 2003 Dec 9.Click here to read Links
Extremity hyperinsulinemia stimulates muscle protein synthesis in severely injured patients.
Gore DC, Wolf SE, Sanford AP, Herndon DN, Wolfe RR.

The University of Texas Medical Branch, 301 University Boulevard, Galveston, TX 77555-1172, USA. dcgore@utmb.edu

Insulin has a well-recognized anabolic effect on muscle protein, yet critically ill, severely injured patients are often considered "resistant" to the action of insulin. The purpose of this study was to assess the in vivo effects of hyperinsulinemia on human skeletal muscle in severely injured patients. To accomplish this goal, 14 patients with burns encompassing >40% of their body surface area underwent metabolic evaluation utilizing isotopic dilution of phenylalanine, femoral artery and vein blood sampling, and sequential muscle biopsies of the leg. After baseline metabolic measurements were taken, insulin was infused into the femoral artery at 0.45 mIU.min(-1).100 ml leg volume(-1) to create a local hyperinsulinemia but with minimal systemic perturbations. Insulin administration increased femoral venous concentration of insulin (P < 0.01) but with only a 4% (insignificant) decrease in the arterial glucose concentration and a 7% (insignificant) decrease in the arterial concentration of phenylalanine. Extremity hyperinsulinemia significantly increased leg blood flow (P < 0.05) and the rate of muscle protein synthesis (P < 0.05). Neither the rate of muscle protein breakdown nor the rate of transmembrane transport of phenylalanine was significantly altered with extremity hyperinsulinemia. In conclusion, this study demonstrates that insulin directly stimulates muscle protein synthesis in severely injured patients.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8772730

Diabetes. 1996 Sep;45(9):1245-52.Links
Contribution of amino acids and insulin to protein anabolism during meal absorption.
Volpi E, Lucidi P, Cruciani G, Monacchia F, Reboldi G, Brunetti P, Bolli GB, De Feo P.

Department of Internal Medicine, Endocrine and Metabolic Sciences, University of Perugia, Italy.

The contribution of dietary amino acids and endogenous hyperinsulinemia to prandial protein anabolism still has not been established. To this end, leucine estimates (Ώ-14C]leucine infusion, plasma alpha-ketoisocaproic acid [KIC] specific activity [SA] as precursor pool SA) of whole-body protein kinetics and fractional secretory rates (FSRs) of albumin, fibrinogen, antithrombin III, and immunoglobulin G (IgG) were measured in three groups of healthy volunteers during intragastric infusion of water (controls, n = 5), liquid glucose-lipid-amino acid (AA) meal (meal+AA, n = 7), or isocaloric glucose-lipid meal (meal-AA, n = 7) that induced the same insulin response as the meal+AA. The results of this study demonstrate that 1) by increasing (P < 0.01) whole-body protein synthesis and decreasing (P < 0.01) proteolysis, dietary amino acids account for the largest part (approximately 90%) of postprandial protein anabolism; 2) the ingestion of an isocaloric meal deprived of amino acids exerts a modest protein anabolic effect (10% of postprandial protein anabolism) by decreasing amino acid oxidation and increasing (P < 0.01) albumin synthesis; 3) albumin FSR is increased (approximately 20%) by postprandial hyperinsulinemia (meal-AA) and additionally increased (approximately 50%) by amino acid intake (meal+AA); 4) IgG FSR is stimulated (approximately 40%) by amino acids, not by insulin; and 5) fibrinogen and antithrombin III FSR are not regulated by amino acids or insulin.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7860765

J Clin Invest. 1995 Feb;95(2):811-9.Click here to read Click here to read Links
Physiologic hyperinsulinemia stimulates protein synthesis and enhances transport of selected amino acids in human skeletal muscle.
Biolo G, Declan Fleming RY, Wolfe RR.

Department of Internal Medicine, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston.

We have investigated the mechanisms of the anabolic effect of insulin on muscle protein metabolism in healthy volunteers, using stable isotopic tracers of amino acids. Calculations of muscle protein synthesis, breakdown, and amino acid transport were based on data obtained with the leg arteriovenous catheterization and muscle biopsy. Insulin was infused (0.15 mU/min per 100 ml leg) into the femoral artery to increase femoral venous insulin concentration (from 10 +/- 2 to 77 +/- 9 microU/ml) with minimal systemic perturbations. Tissue concentrations of free essential amino acids decreased (P < 0.05) after insulin. The fractional synthesis rate of muscle protein (precursor-product approach) increased (P < 0.01) after insulin from 0.0401 +/- 0.0072 to 0.0677 +/- 0.0101%/h. Consistent with this observation, rates of utilization for protein synthesis of intracellular phenylalanine and lysine (arteriovenous balance approach) also increased from 40 +/- 8 to 59 +/- 8 (P < 0.05) and from 219 +/- 21 to 298 +/- 37 (P < 0.08) nmol/min per 100 ml leg, respectively. Release from protein breakdown of phenylalanine, leucine, and lysine was not significantly modified by insulin. Local hyperinsulinemia increased (P < 0.05) the rates of inward transport of leucine, lysine, and alanine, from 164 +/- 22 to 200 +/- 25, from 126 +/- 11 to 221 +/- 30, and from 403 +/- 64 to 595 +/- 106 nmol/min per 100 ml leg, respectively. Transport of phenylalanine did not change significantly. We conclude that insulin promoted muscle anabolism, primarily by stimulating protein synthesis independently of any effect on transmembrane transport.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8304920

Baillieres Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1993 Oct;7(4):989-1005.Links
Insulin action on protein metabolism.
Biolo G, Wolfe RR.

Shriners Burns Institute, Galveston, TX 77550.

On the basis of the preceding observations, the following sequence of events can be postulated during insulin deficiency or excess. The main feature of insulin deficiency is the disruption of protein balance in muscle that rapidly leads to emaciation and wasting. Muscle protein degradation is greatly enhanced while increased amino acid availability maintains protein synthesis. In splanchnic tissues, both degradation and synthesis are increased but with an altered pattern, so that the levels of some proteins are increased (e.g. proteins of the acute-phase response), while those of others are decreased (e.g. albumin). As a result, intracellular protein content in liver is maintained but secretion of plasma proteins is abnormal. In healthy subjects, an acute increase in insulin concentration, as occurs after a meal, leads to a rapid suppression of protein breakdown in the splanchnic area. If hyperinsulinaemia is not supported by an exogenous amino acid supply, as might occur during a protein-free meal or experimentally during euglycaemic hyperinsulinaemic clamping, the plasma as well as muscle free amino acid concentration drops, owing to reduced splanchnic release. With reduced amino acid availability, insulin is not anabolic in muscle. If amino acid concentrations are maintained at normal or high levels, e.g. following a mixed meal, a net protein deposition in muscle may occur, primarily because of a stimulation of synthesis and possibly owing to inhibition of breakdown.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15562823

Novartis Found Symp. 2004;262:56-77; discussion 77-83, 265-8.Links
IGF-1 and insulin as growth hormones.
Laron Z.

Endocrinology and Diabetes Research Unit, Schneider Children's Medical Center, WHO Collaborating Center for the Study of Diabetes in Youth, Petah Tikva and Sackler School of Medicine, Tel Aviv University, Tel Aviv, Israel.

IGF-1 generated in the liver is the anabolic effector and linear growth promoting hormone of the pituitary growth hormone (GH). This is evidenced by dwarfism in states of congenital IGF-1 deficiency, Igf1 gene mutation/deletions or knockouts, and in Laron syndrome (LS), due to GH receptor gene mutations/deletions or IGF-1 receptor blocking. In a positive way, daily IGF-1 administration to stunted patients with LS or hGH gene deletion accelerates linear growth velocity. IGF-1 acts on the proliferative cells of the epiphyseal cartilage. IGF-1 also induces organ and tissue growth; its absence causing organomicria. Insulin shares a common ancestry with IGF-1 and with 45% amino acid homology, as well as very close relationships in the structure of its receptors and post-receptor cascade, also acts as a growth hormone. It has protein anabolic activity and stimulates IGF-1 synthesis. Pancreas agenesis causes short babies, and obese children with hyperinsulinism, with or without pituitary GH, have an accelerated growth rate and skeletal maturation; so do babies with macrosomia. Whether the insulin growth effect is direct, or mediated by IGF-1 or leptin is controversial.
Cranberrycat User is Offline
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04/07/2009 3:05 PM
I get it!

Can this all be applied to the average Joe, or is it really more important for those power athletes that we talked about?

Most of us who are not athletes are not going to run out of ATP and can run throughout the day on fat metabolism (provided that we are following the Zone Diet). But, for you and others, sounds as if there is a point at which you NEED to eat carb heavy high GL snacks, because you are doing things to your body that the average Joe would not be doing. So, MY zone may not work for you, just like YOUR Zone would not work for me.

Now, I know that Sears has said that the Zone is not one diet for everyone. The Zone changes, from one person to the next. I guess I just hadn't really considered how MUCH it changes for an athlete.

Cranberrycat

We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.


Matthew User is Offline
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04/07/2009 3:37 PM
Once again, I think you hit the nail on the head.

There is a reason I posted this information in the "athletic performance" forum and not other forums. There is a reason I keep stressing that it is for people who are already fairly lean and train quite intensely.

I don't think this is something that should be used for average Joe or Jane fitness. For Joe or Jane fitness who wants to shed a few pounds and stay in shape, I think that a small Zone meal following training is more than sufficient and beneficial because it meets their needs, or as you put it, it is in their "Zone". For lean athletes training intensely and seeking peak performance, due to the special circumstances under which they operate, their "Zone" is different than Joe or Jane fitness (at least during post training periods).

Most people in the gym looking to burn a few calories, lose a little fat, or just get healthy, don't train like athletes do, so they shouldn't think that they should eat like an athlete needs to for peak performance following training.

I have tried to repeat that caveat frequently (and not repeated the advice in other forums on this site) for just for the reason you mention.

CC, I gotta say I am impressed. The stuff I am talking about here isn't exactly easy material and it took me years to struggle with and learn a lot of the stuff I have (and I am still learning new stuff every day and continuing to struggle with things I don't yet understand and sometimes having to go back and unlearn things I thought I knew because it turned out I was wrong). You seem to have picked it up in about a week!
Cranberrycat User is Offline
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04/07/2009 4:26 PM
Thanks for the compliment!

It is a bit out of my realm, but I can understand some of it. I am a nurse, so some of it is just going back to the ol' biochem and physiology classes.

I recall, when you first posted in the forums, that it seemed as if you were looking for someone to challenge your thoughts. I can't recall exactly how you said it, but that was my impression. I don't have a clue as to why I thought I could do that, but here we are!

Glad to have stepped in, I have learned quite a bit! Will see if I ever get a decent response from my emails.


Cranberrycat

We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.


Matthew User is Offline
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Zoner

04/07/2009 4:33 PM
Yeah, I like to challenge my own views and to challenge the ideas of others (even if I agree with them) to see if they can hold up.

One of the things I have never been able to really stomach is blind devotion to something because some authority figure said it. They may be right, but if they are right, then challenging those views shouldn't be a threat. And if they are threatened by it, it might prove how little they trust that their ideas can hold up to scrutiny.

I try to keep an open mind about things. This doesn't mean that I don't come to conclusion or develop theories or beliefs, but I am not so wed to those ideas that I am unwilling to reassess whether they are right or not when presented with new information.

Maybe the reason this stuff comes easily to you is because of your biochem background. I don't have a science background so I have had to try and learn it on the fly as I go along over the years, by trying to understand the things I am reading and always trying to ask "why?"
Cranberrycat User is Offline
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04/07/2009 4:53 PM
Well, yeah! That is one of the things that I am frustrated about, and struggling with. Just because Sears said so isn't always good enough for me.

I would have really liked to have seen what Zone Labs would come up with for their references. Too bad that they didn't respond that way, but it is another example of following this stuff blindly, just doing it because he said so, no questions.


Cranberrycat

We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.


Karen User is Offline
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04/07/2009 5:50 PM
CC and Matt, you two have both blown my mind away! Yup, it's gone! LOL! Very interesting reads! I love a civil debate ... it's amazing how much is learned by all. Thank you! BTW, I still don't understand it all, but I did learn new things!

I am in total agreeance with both of you ... question things - don't just take someone's word for it. After all, no one knows it all. Best of all, it gets people's brain churning; and before you know it, something new is being discovered and/or improved!

Happy Zoning!
Karen
Jeffrey User is Offline
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Zoner

04/08/2009 12:00 AM
Matthew, I'm getting ready to try your suggestions, but I have a question... how many grams of BCAA should I ingest in that post workout meal? I'm thinking my post workout meal will look something like this...

1. 8 ozs of 1% milk, mixed with about 14g of ON protein (3g BCAAs) and probably about 3g of glutamine
2. A medium banana

I'll eat a Zone meal about 60-90 minutes afterwards and go to bed - so I can get 8 hours of sleep.

Does that sound about right?
Matthew User is Offline
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04/08/2009 12:27 AM
Jeffrey:

There are some studies out there that have shown beneficial effects with mega-dosing of BCAAs and there are studies showing beneficial effects with substantially smaller doses.

I would say start on the conservative side, with something on the order of 4-5 grams of BCAA very soon before training and 4-5 grams with your post w/o meal.

To be honest, no one really knows right now what the ideal ration of grams of BCAAs/kg should be. That said, I like to err on the side of conservatism and that that 8-10g of BCAAs, in addition to the high GI carbs + protein you are taking should be sufficient. Most supplement companies try to tell you to take more than you need because that means you will order from them more frequently.

It looks like at 8 oz of milk + banana + 14g of protein + BCAAs you will be in the right range for post exercise nutrition.

I would say "good luck" but I am confident that you won't need luck to see results.

Out of curiosity, how long do you plan to give this protocol a trial run? I would suggest that you give it at least a month.
Jeffrey User is Offline
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Zoner

04/08/2009 9:11 AM
Matthew, I plan on giving it a try for at least a month. If it works, I expect a lot longer. Since my protein powder doesn't supply enough BCAAs, what is a reasonably priced BCAA supplement? Is there anything I can pick up at a Wal-Mart or Costco, for example?

TIA.
Matthew User is Offline
Posts:174
Zoner
Zoner

04/08/2009 9:27 AM
You should be able to get them a place like GNC or any other major supplement store.

Since I know you follow GVT, you probably are familiar with Charles Poliquin since he popularized this form of training. He often writes articles for the t-nation website. They also sell supplements (the supplement end of the business is called "biotest"). They sell a pretty decent and reasonably priced BCAAs.
Francisco User is Offline
Posts:10



04/08/2009 6:32 PM
One question very different, what you think about this article,it´s about hyperinsulinaemia of milk but milk have a IG of 30, I don´t understand???

Milk - The promoter of chronic Western diseases.

Department of Dermatology, Environmental Medicine and Health Theory, University of Osnabrück, Sedanstrasse 115, D-49090 Osnabrück, Germany.

Common chronic diseases of Western societies, such as coronary heart disease, diabetes mellitus, cancer, hypertension, obesity, dementia, and allergic diseases are significantly influenced by dietary habits. Cow's milk and dairy products are nutritional staples in most Western societies. Milk and dairy product consumption is recommended by most nutritional societies because of their beneficial effects for calcium uptake and bone mineralization and as a source of valuable protein. However, the adverse long-term effects of milk and milk protein consumption on human health have been neglected. A hypothesis is presented, showing for the first time that milk protein consumption is an essential adverse environmental factor promoting most chronic diseases of Western societies. Milk protein consumption induces postprandial hyperinsulinaemia and shifts the growth hormone/insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) axis to permanently increased IGF-1 serum levels. Insulin/IGF-1 signalling is involved in the regulation of fetal growth, T-cell maturation in the thymus, linear growth, pathogenesis of acne, atherosclerosis, diabetes mellitus, obesity, cancer and neurodegenerative diseases, thus affecting most chronic diseases of Western societies. Of special concern is the possibility that milk intake during pregnancy adversely affects the early fetal programming of the IGF-1 axis which will influence health risks later in life. An accumulated body of evidence for the adverse effects of cow's milk consumption from fetal life to childhood, adolescence, adulthood and senescence will be provided which strengthens the presented hypothesis.

PMID: 19232475 [PubMed - in process]


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19232475?log$=activity


Cranberrycat : what coincidence!!, I´am male nurse too!!
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Dr. Barry Sears, PhD.Dr. Barry Sears is a leading authority on the dietary control of hormonal response. A former research scientist at the Boston University School of Medicine and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Dr. Sears has dedicated his research efforts over the past 30 years to the study of lipids. He holds 13 U.S. Patents in the areas of intravenous drug delivery systems and hormonal regulation for the treatment of cardiovascular disease.

A turning point in his research occurred in 1982. That year, the Nobel Prize in Medicine was awarded for discoveries of the role that specialized hormones, known as eicosanoids, play in the development of cardiovascular disease, diabetes, auto-immune diseases, and cancer. Since eicosanoids are only generated from dietary fat, Dr. Sears reasoned that one could apply intravenous drug delivery principles to nutrition in order to control these exceptionally powerful hormonal responses with laser-like precision. In essence, his approach treats food as if it were a drug.

This area of his research led to various patents in the area of hormonal control by essentially using food as an oral drug delivery system to modulate eicosanoids especially for cardiovascular, diabetic, and neurological patients.

The impact of Dr. Sears’ revolutionary work in the dietary control of hormonal response began with the publication of his landmark book, The Zone. Since its publication in June 1995, The Zone has sold more than 2,000,000 hardcover copies, and became a #1 best seller on the New York Times book list. In addition, The Zone has been translated into 22 languages indicating a worldwide response to Dr. Sears’ research. His second book, Mastering the Zone, published in 1997, also became a New York Times bestseller with hardcover sales in excess of 500,000 copies to date. His third book, Zone Perfect Meals in Minutes, published in 1997, quickly became one of the best-selling cookbooks of 1997 and an another New York Times bestseller. The Anti-Aging Zone was published in 1999 and provides the molecular insights into how the Zone Diet can reverse the aging process. The Omega Rx Zone, published in 2002, explores the molecular foundation of chronic disease and how high-dose fish oil can dramatically reverse it. His latest book The Anti-Inflammation Zone discusses how to combat silent inflammation in order to reduce the risk of cancer, heart disease, diabetes, dementia, and many other inflammatory conditions—and how to reverse these conditions if they are already present. To date more than 5 million hardcover copies of his Zone books have been sold in the United States.

His research has elevated food from more than simply a source of calories to being recognized as an exceptionally powerful drug. Because of his revolutionary research, Dr. Sears has been a frequent guest on many national programs such as 20/20, Today, Good Morning America, CBS Morning News, CNN, and MSNBC.

Dr. Sears continues his ongoing research as President of Zone Labs, a biotechnology company in Danvers, MA as well as the President of the non-profit Inflammation Research Foundation in Marblehead, MA. In addition to continuing research on the hormonal effects of food, Dr. Sears has expanded his research in developing innovative dietary approaches to treating cancer and neurological conditions, as well as his on-going work in treating cardiovascular diease and type 2 diabetes.

I have been taking the Fish Oil for over 3 years now. I am 44 playing hockey and working out. The Fish oil helps with the pain that I get from playing hockey. It greatly enhances my performance on the ice and while working out. I have noticed a big difference in my energy, attentiveness and memory. If I miss a day for whatever reason, I notice a huge difference and it feels like something is missing. Anyway that is my short little story and it comes from the heart.

– Carter B.

 

I am a nutritionist and Ph.D. doctor of health and nutrition. For Dr. Sears to figure out balancing fat, carbs and protein, is really beyond brilliant. It is a milestone in diet history. I go over people's diet/emotional journals. Mostly all the time, we discover that the fatigue, irritability, unstable emotions were due to the imbalance in their diet. Using the Zone to balance them out, helps control weight, roller coaster emotions and gives them energy. Dr. Sears is so right when he says food is medicine. He has figured out the most powerful drug combination going, called The Zone.
Best and healthy wishes,

– Elaine W., Ph.D., N.C., M.A.

 

I have a very exhausting job as a flight attendant. I read the "Omega Rx Zone" about 4 years ago and started taking the fish oil. I am 47 and have been flying for 22 years. I am very active, I run and lift weights. But combining lack of regular sleep, a physically demanding job, and irregular eating patterns this job takes a toll on the body. Since taking the fish oil, I have noticed that I do not get exhausted. I get tired, but not exhausted. I stopped taking it for a couple of months and then started taking another company's fish oil. I started getting exhausted again. I came back to Zone Labs and will continue with the fish oil for the rest of my life. I believe in the product and it makes a huge difference in my life. It makes a difference with my running as well. I also bring the bars and shakes with me on the road. It is almost impossible to eat the way I should at work. I haven't found the right secret. At least I have my Zone fish oil, bars, and shakes.

– Kathryn S.

 

I have been in the Zone, for about 1 month now. I wanted to share with you how wonderful I think this program is. I have been a personal trainer for almost 10 years and actively compete in numerous athletic activities. The Zone program has helped me to achieve a better awareness of my nutritional needs and the results I have seen are amazing! I have lost nearly 13 lbs since I have been in the Zone. I feel more mentally alert, more focused at work, have greater intensity during my training, have made significant strength gains, and just feel better over all. With that said, I would like to thank you for helping me in my quest for "super-health"!
Thank you!

– Rob Y.

 

I read 'The Zone' and as exactly as I could followed the advice for diet. I noted weight loss progress. Over six months, I lost 33 pounds. One year has passed since then. I have maintained the new weight, guided always by Zone concepts. The Zone is powerful - I have found it fantastic and I am very grateful to Dr Sears.

– Lyn S.

 

Before I stumbled across the Zone I was weighing close to two hundred pounds and I was depressed. I used to be a gymnast as a young man. I would think, "look at me now," when I looked in a mirror. The day I found 'The Zone' book, I was intrigued and as I read it the science made sense and so, I began to follow the "treatment". I began to lose weight and I was feeling way more energetic. I am forty two years old, I am very active and my weight is down to 162 lbs, 38 pounds lost on the Zone. I cycle, walk, jog, swim and I can now perform some of the more simple gymnastic skills I did twenty years ago...I literally feel like I have turned back the clock.
Thank you!

– Jack J.

 

I have been on the Zone diet for 7 years. I did not go on the diet to lose weight necessarily; but fairly quickly I lost 25 pounds, going from 190 to 165; from a 36-inch waist to a 32-inch waist. I primarily did the Zone to live healthier. My health is excellent now. I just turned 62 years old. My Zone is my eating lifestyle now; I seldom stray; and I do not miss anything. It is The Good Life.

– Curtis Y.

 

My wife's doctor told her to read "Enter the Zone" and to do the diet, so I told her I would do it with her. After only one week on the plan we went on a strenuous hike (the first of the year), and when we stopped at our favorite coffee shop on the way home I was able to get out of the car and stand upright and walk into the place without pain or stiffness. The Zone had eliminated all the inflammation that had always forced me to stumble all humped over into the coffee shop any time we skied or hiked all day.
Thank you, Doctor Sears.

– Larry C.

 

I used to have a lot of knee pain when I walked or ran. I have been taking Omega Rx for almost a year now, and rarely have any pain. I believe it is the anti-inflammation action of the oil. I feel smarter as well. Thanks for developing such a superior oil!

– Joe W.

 

Prior to following the Zone Diet, my body fat was around 15% and my weight around 153 pounds. No matter what I did, my weight and body fat did not change much. I regularly cycled 20-30 hours per week logging well over 400 miles. That had little impact on body fat or weight. Diet also seemed to have little impact on body fat or weight. Within a couple of months of following the zone diet, my weight dropped rather quickly to 142 pounds and body fat to about 8%. I still regularly cycle up to 20 hours per week (during the summer). I have also started strength training. I eat about 16 blocks per day. I take 3.6 grams of fish oil per day, along with Vitamin E, Alpha Lipoic Acid, CoQ10, and B & C vitamins. I also take GLA, which in my opinion, has significantly reduced fatigue and improved recovery times after exercise.

– Jeremy S.

All polyphenols have antioxidant properties than can be measured by their Oxygen Radical Absorption Capacity (ORAC), but not all polyphenols have anti-inflammatory properties. The polyphenols in Dr. Sears’ Zone Polyphenol Plus have been carefully chosen to have both.

Polyphenols are the phytochemicals that not only give fruits and vegetables their color, but also help regulate inflammation. In addition, polyphenols also activate the key enzyme (AMP kinase) that helps restore cellular ATP levels. Polyphenols also help regulate the activation of inducible inflammatory proteins (such as COX-2 and inflammatory cytokines).

There are more than 4,000 known polyphenols, and the richest sources are fruits and vegetables. In general, the more color a fruit or vegetable has, the richer the polyphenol content.

Why OmegaRx From Zone Labs?

Certified Purity and Proven Potency

Zone Labs’ Ultra Refined Omega-3 Concentrates are three times fresher and contain less than 1/10th the mercury than what is allowed by the Norwegian Medicinal Standard and European Pharmacopoeia Standard

Zone Labs adheres to the International Fish Oil Standard (IFOS), an independent third party validated laboratory quality standard that is more rigid than any other global standard for purity.

  • No company in the worlds runs more tests with IFOS than Zone Labs
  • Zone Labs receives a 5 out of 5 star IFOS rating for every batch it tests
Standard IFOS Standard for a 5-Star Ranking Council for Responsible Nutrition European Pharmacopeia Norwegian Medicinal Standards
Peroxide < 3.75 meg/kg 5 meg/kg 10 meg/kg 10 meg/kg
Totox Levels < 20 meg/kg 26 meg/kg NA NA
Lead < 10 ppb 10 ppb 100 ppb 100 ppb
Mercury < 10 ppb 10 ppb 100 ppb 100 ppb
Dioxans and Furans < 1 ppt 2 ppt 2 ppt 2 ppt
PCBs < 45 ppb 90 ppb NA NA

 

 

 

 

 

"IFOS – THE TOP GLOBAL PURITY STANDARD FOR OMEGA-3 FROM FISH"

Zone Labs products show no detectable lead or mercury when tested down to 10ppb, which is 10 times below the Norwegian Medicinal Standard and European Pharmacopoeia Standard limits.

Zone Labs products are three times fresher than the minimum allowed by the Norwegian Medicinal Standard and European Pharmacopoeia Standards (based on average peroxide values).

 

Zone Labs starts with only wild, small fish from pristine Chilean waters and ends with proprietary validation and testing processes to achieve an IFOS certified 5 star rating.

8-Step Manufacturing Process - Quality Assured

Testing to specification all raw materials, bulk products, packaging material and finished products – always using stringent internal standards and in-process testing.

  1. Extraction of fish oil
  2. Winterization – remove limited amounts of saturated fats
  3. Absorption – remove heavy metals
  4. Preliminary Molecular Distillation – refining “touch up” to reduce contaminants
  5. Oil conversion to ethyl esters
  6. Ethyl ester thermal fractionation – remove additional saturated fats
  7. True Molecular Distillation – final refining to remove pcb’s and long-chain monoenes
  8. Rigid Processes – proprietary validation, inspection and encapsulation methods. Independent lab verification of IFOS requirements and certified 5 star rating

 

Clean Sources

No farmed fish. No large fish. Pristine waters.

Zone Labs starts with wild sardines & anchovies fished from cold, pristine waters off of South America where there are less environmental impurities.

 

A recommended serving of Zone Labs Ultra-Refined Concentrates delivers 8 times more omega-3’s than a typical retail fish oil supplement.

Most fish oil supplements have 30% or less of the healthy omega-3s EPA and DHA, with the remaining 70% of the capsule containing unbeneficial, lesser refined fatty acids that contribute to their bad taste and gastric side effects.

 

Getting a clinically valid dose of omega-3’s is easy with Zone Labs’ Ultra-Refined Omega-3 Concentrates.

Typical Retail Dose = 300mg omega-3

Standard Zone Dose = 2400mg omega-3

 

A serving of canned tuna has 12 times less omega-3’s than
Zone Labs Ultra-Refined Omega-3 Concentrates

Commonly consumed fish and shellfish in the United States

Mercury Source: Food and Drug Administration, FDA 1900-2004, “National Marine Fisheries Service Survey of Trace Elements in the Fishery Resource". Omega-3 Level Source: American Heart Association Website.

  Mercury level
in parts per million (ppm)
Omega-3 fatty acids
(milligrams per 3-oz. serving)
Zone Omega-3 Products < 0.01 2400 (standard 4 capsule serving
Salmon (fresh, frozen) 0.014 1200
Flounder or sole 0.050 480
Pollock 0.041 450
Crab 0.060 400
Scallops 0.050 290
Shrimp ND* 290
Catfish 0.050 270
Clams ND* 250
Cod 0.095 210
Canned Tuna (light) 0.120 200
* ND: Mercury concentration below detection limit.

 

OmegaRx®

Zone Labs’ leading product. OmegaRx delivers all of the benefits of Zone Labs’ ultra-refined omega-3 concentrates.

Advantages

  • Delivers clinically proven health benefits from the omega-3 fatty acids EPA and DHA*
  • Promotes a healthy heart, healthy brain, healthy immune system, healthy circulatory system, healthy joints, healthy moods, healthy triglyceride levels and a healthy pregnancy*
  • Combats silent inflammation

 

*These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration.

These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

 

 

 

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