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Sue K 
Posts:9554
Zone Expert
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| 02/06/2008 4:57 PM |
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Hi Everyone,
For those who are following this thread, and would like a better understanding, the acceptable P/C range for the Zone is explained in detail in Chapter 7 ("Boundaries of the Zone") of "The Zone" by Barry Sears. To quote Dr. Sears from the first page of that chapter (page 65):
"And what is the beneficial ratio of protein to carbohydrate? The ideal is about 0.75---that's three grams of protein to every four grams of carbohydrate. That's the ideal. But there's a range of beneficial protein-to-carbohydrate ratios that are still Zone-favorable---between about 0.6 and 1.0"
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sue
Lost 100 lbs 15 yrs ago, off BP meds, thanks to the Zone diet and Zone fish oil. ZoneFast is the best!
To view my before/after pics and meal photos click on this picture
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Sue K
Posts:9554
Zone Expert
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| 02/06/2008 5:18 PM |
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Hi Cranberry,
[quote]Posted By Cranberrycat on 02/06/2008 4:22 PM
LOL! Funny, seems as though the P/C range seems to adjust itself! Well, I don't know why you would reference me to your previous post, if you were going to change your mind!!!
[/quote]
Nothing has changed. It's been the same since the first Zone book was written. For a 3 block meal with the adjustment of one additional carb block, the ratio is 0.58 (21 grams of protein divided by 36 grams of carb), which is probably the reason I've seen it expressed as both 0.5 and 0.6.
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sue
Lost 100 lbs 15 yrs ago, off BP meds, thanks to the Zone diet and Zone fish oil. ZoneFast is the best!
To view my before/after pics and meal photos click on this picture
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Cranberrycat 
Posts:5878
Zone Expert
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| 02/06/2008 6:30 PM |
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Sue,
Still, I think you have to consider that 0.47 is quite a distance from 0.58, considering that 0.58 is the adjustment of a carb block. 0.47 is equal to 2 additional carb blocks onto a 3 block meal. As you are aware, one additional block added or subtracted from a meal makes a huge difference. So, why would 2 blocks be ok?
Do you know of any reference to the P/C ratio in AIZ? Since this is the book in which the Zone Points were introduced, it might be more beneficial for this discussion to talk about the Zone science in more up-to-date references. |
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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Sue K
Posts:9554
Zone Expert
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| 02/06/2008 7:33 PM |
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[quote]Posted By Cranberrycat on 02/06/2008 6:30 PM
Sue,
Still, I think you have to consider that 0.47 is quite a distance from 0.58, considering that 0.58 is the adjustment of a carb block. 0.47 is equal to 2 additional carb blocks onto a 3 block meal. As you are aware, one additional block added or subtracted from a meal makes a huge difference. So, why would 2 blocks be ok?
Do you know of any reference to the P/C ratio in AIZ? Since this is the book in which the Zone Points were introduced, it might be more beneficial for this discussion to talk about the Zone science in more up-to-date references. [/quote]
I posted earlier in this thread, that it is outside the range of the Zone.
A Zone Professional (refer to phone number above) may be able to answer your questions.
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sue
Lost 100 lbs 15 yrs ago, off BP meds, thanks to the Zone diet and Zone fish oil. ZoneFast is the best!
To view my before/after pics and meal photos click on this picture
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cheril
Posts:181
Zoner
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| 02/06/2008 8:02 PM |
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J, Thanks for the link to the points list.
Wow, that is a bit confusing to try to compare the plate vs. block vs. point methods. I'll have to look at it a bit more to see how it compares.
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Cranberrycat
Posts:5878
Zone Expert
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| 02/06/2008 9:28 PM |
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Cheril,
In terms of putting the meals together, it really isn't difficult at all. The protein and fat works just like the hand/eye or plate method. And, the carbs just work like the block list, except you select items in order to get your point value to add up to the right number (15 for women) (I wasn't sure if you knew this, so sorry if you were already aware of this stuff).
I think that the general idea was that a block of carb was worth 5 points. However, some carb are only 3 points, and some carbs are worth more (veggies are lower points, and that makes it seem possible to put together a meal made up of 5 blocks of carb, if all low density veggies are used).
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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Cranberrycat
Posts:5878
Zone Expert
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| 02/06/2008 9:41 PM |
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Sue,
I have already talked to Zone professionals on several different occasions.
Their answer is that most people would NOT actually put together a meal made up of all veggies, that they would be more likely to mix densities. The list gives them a guide, so that one does not "overdose" on unfavorable carbs (since they are rated high). One would not be able to put a meal together made up of all unfavorables, because the point value is likely to be 20 or higher. But, if one puts together a meal with some veggie, some fruit and some unfavorable, then the meal is more likely to measure out at 15 points, and the meal is more appealing to those who don't eat all veggies. I asked them how to make my meals work if I eat all veggies, and they basically recommended that I DON'T do that. One needs a variety of veggies and fruits, and they have discouraged an all-veggie approach on a consistent basis.
One of the experts that I had talked to was a Zone nutritionist.
You posted earlier in the thread that 0.47 was close to the threshold of the zone ratio. I think that most anyone would make the assumption that it was close enough to be "ok". And, since you seem to be of the opinion that the Points are just another way of putting together a zone meal, then I was trying to ask you how you would consider a zone points meal to truly be zoned if it didn't fall within the recommended ratios?
BTW, the whole thing came up because of CPK's suggestion to increase carb content of my meals when I am using all veggies. I think that CPK noticed that this idea is basically the same as what Zone Points accomplishes, by allowing one to eat MORE grams of carb, if the carb is coming from low density carbohydrates.
I am noticing that you continue to reference me to others for answers to the questions in this (and other) discussions. However, I am fully aware that I can pick up a phone and call for any question, or I can post on the live chat, or send an email, etc. Or, even post it on "Ask Dr Sears". However, I chose to continue this discussion because I value the input from members (you AND everyone else). I think it really makes for some interesting discussion. I am truly sorry if you think that these questions are bothersome. |
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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cheril
Posts:181
Zoner
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| 02/07/2008 7:03 PM |
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Hello,
Thanks Cranberry for the quick overview. I have not yet read the AntiInflamation book so I'm behind on points but I'm pretty well versed in block counting. After looking at the points a little closer I noticed that some of the favorable carbs I eat regularly- chick peas, strawberries, black beans would yeild larger servings than the block method. (Actually chickpease are listed twice once as .25C= 3 point and again for 6 points. I would think that 3 points would be correct as that would keep it in line with lentils and black beans.) It's good to compare, but I'm more comfortable with blocks and plate. It maybe just one of those old dog new tricks deal:-). Maybe I'll rethink it in the future when I feel a need to change it up. |
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Cranberrycat
Posts:5878
Zone Expert
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| 02/07/2008 7:19 PM |
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Cheril,
I wasn't trying to recommend it to you, just trying to explain it to you! :) I am still trying to understand the purpose of it, myself, with the larger servings of low density carbs. |
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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Sue K
Posts:9554
Zone Expert
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| 02/08/2008 8:16 AM |
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Hi cheril,
If you take a closer look, you'll see that those two notations for chickpeas do agree with each other. The cooked veggie list shows .25 cup as 5 pts, and the raw list shows .5 cup as 6 pts.
As Barry explains in "the Anti-Inflammation Zone", where he introduced the Zone Points method, both points and blocks will give more precision with carbs than the plate method, with points finally allowing you to be able to add carb to a meal to reach a very specific GL. |
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sue
Lost 100 lbs 15 yrs ago, off BP meds, thanks to the Zone diet and Zone fish oil. ZoneFast is the best!
To view my before/after pics and meal photos click on this picture
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cheril
Posts:181
Zoner
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| 02/08/2008 4:38 PM |
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Hi CranCat,
I'm just back and forth with you trying to understand points vs. blocks. I'm pretty good with my at home meals with blocks. I was wondering if servings vary much between blocks and points as they do from ETZ to current block guides. I understand the evolution of the diet. It looks like I could likely eat a few more strawberries than I currently do. They are in prime season so I'm eating them quite often.
Hi Sue,
Light dawns on marble head... yes, Chickpeas...if they are 3 points for .25C then 6 points for .5C makes sense raw or cooked. I guess I saw the change in points but not serving size:-) oopsie on my part. I still have not read the Anti-Inflamation book. My guess was it was more of the same for diet and more evidence supporting the diet and fish oil. I still can't take fish oil. My diet is pretty good. I know I need to do strength training which I'm sure the book also recommends...that hopefully will come this year if I can move past my constant minor work spasms. |
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Cranberrycat
Posts:5878
Zone Expert
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| 02/08/2008 5:28 PM |
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Cheril,
Yes, it does appear to me that servings can vary greatly from blocks to points. Just consider, normally a 3 block meal can become a 5 block meal if the points are tallied. And, 3 blocks of low-density carb is PLENTY, so imagine eating 5 blocks of it! LOL!
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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Cranberrycat
Posts:5878
Zone Expert
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| 02/08/2008 5:32 PM |
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Sue,
I am still having difficulty understanding where you stand on the Zone Points issue. Are you actually saying that it doesn't matter how much carb one takes in, as long as the glycemic load of the meal isn't exceeded (or minimized)?
I really find it fascinating that you are in favor of this system for building zoned meals. Perhaps I am remembering wrong, but I thought we discussed this issue in email, and your opinion at that time was totally opposite?
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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Sue K
Posts:9554
Zone Expert
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| 02/08/2008 6:43 PM |
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Cranberry,
I've clearly stated my thoughts about Zone Points in other posts in this thread.
Yes, you must be remembering something incorrectly. |
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sue
Lost 100 lbs 15 yrs ago, off BP meds, thanks to the Zone diet and Zone fish oil. ZoneFast is the best!
To view my before/after pics and meal photos click on this picture
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Cranberrycat
Posts:5878
Zone Expert
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| 02/09/2008 8:42 AM |
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Sue
Well, I guess it isn't clear to me. You had posted that the points were just another way of building a zone meal, as long as the ratios stayed within the zone guidelines. I pointed out that it is possible to use the zone points and build a meal that falls well outside of the zone range for P/C ratio. If it falls outside of the zone range, then how exactly is it a zoned meal?
I suppose I could go back and review old emails, although that really sounds like a tedious task. I don't really think I have misunderstood your earlier opinion. |
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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