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snickers 
Posts:82
Aspiring
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| 02/02/2008 8:29 AM |
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There was a "snip-it" of a discussion on another thread about Zone Points, and I would like to pull it out of that thread and start the discussion here.
So, lets talk!
I have been a "blocker" for a long time, and basically just read the Anti-Inflammation Zone, where the Zone Points system was introduced.
There is a table, basically similar to the Zone Block list, but it assigns a point value to the carbs. It uses the glycemic index and glycemic load approach to determine the value. For women, up to 15 zone points can be taken at one meal, and for guys, up to 20 (based on 3-4 block meals-I believe that each 5 points represents a block, and so one would adjust these points accordingly).
Anyway, I have noticed that if one uses all veggies for their carbs in a 3 block meal, that the points don't add up to 15. It is possible to have 3 blocks of veggies and only use 9 points.
So, the question for discussion is this: is it reasonable to assume that if one is eating all veggies, that he/she is NOT getting adequate glucose stimulation?
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Cranberrycat
Posts:5878
Zone Expert
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| 02/03/2008 4:52 PM |
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I have also wondered about the zone points system. I noticed the same thing, about the varying points per carb item. It does seem possible to eat "5 blocks" of a very low glycemic veggie, since it seems to be saying that those 5 blocks produce the same glycemic response as 3 blocks of something else, despite the fact that there are more grams of carbs in 5 blocks than there are in 3 blocks.
I have never really given the points system an honest try, perhaps that is why I am struggling with a plateau and hunger with only 2 blocks of low-glycemic veggies in my 2C-3P-5F meal! |
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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cheril
Posts:181
Zoner
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| 02/03/2008 5:09 PM |
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Hi CPK,
I have not yet read the Anti-Inflamation Zone yet. Have you by chance found any point info on the website? I am curious about this myself. I generally don't count salad greens. I just pile the salad greens onto my plate with the volume depending on my hunger level. I do measure more dense carb, i.e. chic peas, salsa or other dense stuff that finds its way to a salad. |
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Cranberrycat
Posts:5878
Zone Expert
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| 02/03/2008 8:27 PM |
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Hi Cheril,
I have not found any point values on this website. But, I find it kind of timely that this subject comes up after discussing it a bit on the other thread (or at least the fact that perhaps my hunger problem is because I am not getting enough insulin-stimulating carb). I know that when I prepare my veggie meals, they often fall short of 15 points for a 3 block meal, and these are the meals that I get early hunger from.
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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Sue K 
Posts:9559
Zone Expert
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| 02/04/2008 8:49 AM |
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Hi Everyone,
Whichever method you choose (plate, blocks , points, 1-2-3, counting every gram, etc), it is merely a starting point and you'd adjust, if necessary, to meet your specific needs. While the ideal Zone P/C ratio is 0.75, the acceptable P/C for the Zone ranges from 0.6 to 1. It would not be expected that one person will have the same response as the next, nor would it be expected that any single individual will have the same response to a particular numerical amount of carb grams regardless of the specific food eaten. This would apply to any type of carb, whether favorable or unfavorable. It's expected that you use the various methods of putting together Zone meals as guidelines, while trying not to get caught up in the small numerical differences. Here's a quote from Barry: "These numbers are not set in concrete. You may have to do some adjusting for your personal biochemistry, but they will give you a good starting point." (taken from page 208 of "A Week in the Zone"; the same info is given again on page 219 of that book). If you need to adjust from the starting point, in other words, if you require a tighter narrower range within the acceptable P/C range in order to stay in the Zone, once you adjust you'll have arrived at the same amount, and same types of food on your plate to keep you in the Zone, regardless of which method you used.
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sue
Lost 100 lbs 15 yrs ago, off BP meds, thanks to the Zone diet and Zone fish oil. ZoneFast is the best!
To view my before/after pics and meal photos click on this picture
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Cranberrycat
Posts:5878
Zone Expert
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| 02/04/2008 1:15 PM |
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Sue,
So, what is your opinion about the Zone Points system of counting?
Are you saying that it is possible that one can eat a 3 block meal composed of 5C-3P-3F (assuming that the zone points come out to 15), and another meal might be 2C-3P-5F (again assuming that the points come out to 15)and still stay in the Zone?
Obviously, there will be some personal differences.
Truly, I have never heard anyone ever say that it was possible that one could tolerate 5 blocks of a low glycemic veggie and get the same meal response as with only 2 blocks of a moderate or high glycemic carb. |
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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Sue K
Posts:9559
Zone Expert
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| 02/04/2008 2:08 PM |
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| My opinion of the Zone points is that it is another means of putting together a Zone meal. I don't have strong opinions of it one way or the other. All the methods will result in a Zone balanced meal. If a person needs to adjust for their chemistry, once they make the successful adjustment that keeps them in the Zone, the foods and amounts they do best with will be the same no matter what method they call it. It will reflect the carb densities and amounts of foods they need to stay in the Zone. We are all individuals, with a myriad of different responses. |
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sue
Lost 100 lbs 15 yrs ago, off BP meds, thanks to the Zone diet and Zone fish oil. ZoneFast is the best!
To view my before/after pics and meal photos click on this picture
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Cranberrycat
Posts:5878
Zone Expert
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| 02/04/2008 4:23 PM |
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Sue,
That is very interesting. I had the impression that you were not highly in favor of this way of arranging a zone meal. |
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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snickers
Posts:82
Aspiring
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| 02/05/2008 10:37 PM |
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Hello, Cheril--
I have not seen points information on this website, only in the book.
One thing that baffles me with regard to the points system is that lettuce counts as 10 points for the equivalent of one block. (1 cup lettuce is 1 point, therefore 10 cups is equal to 10 points).
However, I think it is a neat way of counting, and one that I think I will put to use, since it appears (for the most part) to be based on the glycemic load. |
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snickers
Posts:82
Aspiring
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| 02/05/2008 10:41 PM |
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| Sue, I certainly got the impression that you did not want your comments from the other thread to be associated in any way to the Zone Points system. I would love to know personally how you feel about it. I agree with your comments, but to be honest, a meal made up from Zone points is not equal to a meal made up from blocks (all personal adjustments aside). |
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Sue K
Posts:9559
Zone Expert
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| 02/06/2008 9:48 AM |
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Hi cabbage patch kid,
Please refer to my posts above, in which I addressed in detail how I personally feel about Zone points. I don't have a problem with Zone points.
As I recall, in the other thread you're mentioning (I'm assuming you're referring to the "Cranberry" thread in the Weight Loss forum), you'd commented something to the effect that info I'd posted sounded like Zone points. I simply posted clarification that I was not giving info about Zone points in particular. The subject of my message in that thread was differences in carb densities in general. |
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sue
Lost 100 lbs 15 yrs ago, off BP meds, thanks to the Zone diet and Zone fish oil. ZoneFast is the best!
To view my before/after pics and meal photos click on this picture
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Cranberrycat
Posts:5878
Zone Expert
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| 02/06/2008 11:32 AM |
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Sue,
Since you brought up the Zone ratio, I have a question about that:
I wondered if a meal that has 21 grams of protein and 45 grams of insulin-stimulating carb fits into the Zone P/C ratio?
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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Sue K
Posts:9559
Zone Expert
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| 02/06/2008 11:47 AM |
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| It would be slightly going past the border of the range. |
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sue
Lost 100 lbs 15 yrs ago, off BP meds, thanks to the Zone diet and Zone fish oil. ZoneFast is the best!
To view my before/after pics and meal photos click on this picture
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J
Posts:1
Newbie
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| 02/06/2008 11:49 AM |
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The revised Zone Points list can be found at:
http://news.drsears.com/archives/March_06/countlist_touse.htm
The Zone Points list in "The Anti-Inflammation Zone" book lists point values for 1/2c or 1c portions. The revised list shows the point values assigned to a "block" amount.
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Cranberrycat
Posts:5878
Zone Expert
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| 02/06/2008 11:49 AM |
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| For the purpose of this discussion, and the fact that other readers may not have the resources, what exactly IS the range? |
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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Cranberrycat
Posts:5878
Zone Expert
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| 02/06/2008 11:51 AM |
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Thanks, J for posting that!
I have that reference, but I think that it would be neat for the admins of the site to post this information so that it is easier to retrieve, like perhaps where the block list is, or maybe they could even combine the lists together! (which is what I am doing on my spreadsheet) |
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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Sue K
Posts:9559
Zone Expert
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| 02/06/2008 11:56 AM |
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[quote]Posted By Cranberrycat on 02/06/2008 11:49 AM
For the purpose of this discussion, and the fact that other readers may not have the resources, what exactly IS the range? [/quote]
Cranberry, please refer back to my other posts in this thread for that info. I've also seen it described as 0.5 to 1.
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sue
Lost 100 lbs 15 yrs ago, off BP meds, thanks to the Zone diet and Zone fish oil. ZoneFast is the best!
To view my before/after pics and meal photos click on this picture
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Cranberrycat
Posts:5878
Zone Expert
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| 02/06/2008 12:16 PM |
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[quote]Posted By Sue on 02/04/2008 8:49 AM
Hi Everyone,
Whichever method you choose (plate, blocks , points, 1-2-3, counting every gram, etc), it is merely a starting point and you'd adjust, if necessary, to meet your specific needs. While the ideal Zone P/C ratio is 0.75, the acceptable P/C for the Zone ranges from 0.6 to 1.
[/quote]
Sue,
Oh, I see. There it is! So, that leads me to my next question...
(BTW, you might want to correct your last post, as you posted that the range was 0.5-1)
As I have it calculated out, the Zone Points system could potentially put one out of the acceptable Zone range, with the ratio being 0.467. That does not seem to be "just below" the range. Rather, it seems to be quite a bit out of the range.
So, how would that ratio work in the Zone? To me, it doesn't seem possible to build consistent zone meals using this system. Out of all of the other ways to build a zone meal, I don't think that they would end up with that ratio? |
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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Sue K
Posts:9559
Zone Expert
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| 02/06/2008 12:29 PM |
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Hi Cranberry,
Please note that I referred you back to my previous post in this thread which contains the 0.6 to 1 info (which, as I recall, is from Barry's first Zone book, "The Zone"), and then I added that I've also seen the P/C range described as 0.5 to 1. 0.5 is not a typo.
You might want to consider submitting your questions about this to "Ask Dr. Sears" on DrSears.com. He may be better able to address your concerns.
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sue
Lost 100 lbs 15 yrs ago, off BP meds, thanks to the Zone diet and Zone fish oil. ZoneFast is the best!
To view my before/after pics and meal photos click on this picture
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Cranberrycat
Posts:5878
Zone Expert
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| 02/06/2008 4:22 PM |
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LOL! Funny, seems as though the P/C range seems to adjust itself! Well, I don't know why you would reference me to your previous post, if you were going to change your mind!!!
Truly, though, I really don't agree with you on the flexibility of the P/C range. The ideal P/C ratio in the Zone is 0.77 or thereabouts. Milk is 0.66, yogurt can vary, too. However, I truly don't feel that 0.47 is anywhere near the Zone!
Note, though, that we are talking about a standard Zone ratio, and that the ratio can be tweaked for ones needs, depending on carb tolerance. I think that one can go to 0.6 if they are able to tolerate carbs, and up to 1.0 for carb sensitivity.
The figure that I posted, 0.467 (or 0.47, if you care to round it up) is still outside of the edges of the Zone. That is the ratio for a 3P-5C meal (which is what Zone Points is suggesting, if one eats 5 blocks of low-density veggies to get to their 15 points).
This brings me back to the question, how does Zone Points work in the Zone, if the Zone ratios in the Zone do not match up to what the Points system could potentially allow?
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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