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Sue 
Posts:4177
Zoner
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| 03/25/2008 7:32 PM |
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Frequently zoners post here with questions about the value of taking flax oil to get EPA and DHA. Here's Barry Sears' latest word on the subject (today's "Ask Dr. Sears"):
http://www.drsears.com/tabid/399/itemid/10919/Flax-vs-Fish-Oil.aspx |
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sue
lost 100 lbs 13 yrs ago, off BP meds, thanks to the Zone diet and Zone fish oil!
for more photos, scroll over this photo and click when the link appears
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Cranberrycat
Posts:2004
Zoner
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| 03/25/2008 11:12 PM |
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| My comment on that: Sears does not make any comment about any harmful effects of using flax seed oil. He only points out that the conversion is not as efficient. I would love to see him write some more about ground flax seed, or flax seed oil. I have read his Q&A on the issue, and it is only in his earlier works where he warns about some possible dangers. I find it extremely surprising that he does not comment at all in the OmegaRx Zone about ground flax seed or flax seed oil. |
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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E.Wally 
Posts:271
Zoner
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| 07/05/2008 12:23 PM |
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CranberryCat,
Perhaps you can help with this. It has become a little issue for me lately - that is - the use of flaxseed - GROUND flaxseed specifically.
I have been using ground flaxseed for many years for a variety of reasons :
I like the taste of it in general when added to salads for example and LOVE the taste of it's combination with yogurt [ zero fat yogurt ] - which by mixing in a tblsp or two right in the cup of Dannon "light and fit" makes a perfectly balanced snack with "good fats" replacing the "zero fats" and being able to be prepared [ and taken with you if wanted ] in about 10 seconds.
More importantly I am after the many health benefits of GROUND flaxseed which I won't go into but most importantly to ME is the evidence that it is very beneficial to colon health.
Polyps have been found in my last two colonoscopies - benign of course and I would certainly like to keep them that way and GROUND flaxseed from everything I can find points to it being able to contribute to that.
I am very aware of the fact that flaxseed OIL - and of course GROUND flaxseed - do not convert nearly as readily as fish oil into the biochemicals [ EPA/DHA ] and control of the biochemical reactions that we are after in The Zone.
I am NOT relying on GROUND flaxseed for that - I am and have been always supplementing with Fish oil.
So - my question comes down to one I can't seem to get a clear answer from the books or the website or - Dr.Sears.
WHICH IS : I would like to increase my intake of GROUND flaxseed for the protection benefit it seems to have to the colon.
Is there/are there any specific guidelines as to what the upward limit of that might be ?
I couldn't agree with you more when you comment :
... I find it extremely surprising that he does not comment at all in the OmegaRx Zone about ground flax seed or flax seed oil...
In fact, if anything, he seems to be avoiding talking about flaxseed in general and ground flaxseed specifically. Especially when if you are familiar with his writings you know that he is if anything very talkative and explanatory by nature.
[ In fact, I have gotten the feeling that Dr Sears is deliberatly avoiding any mention of flaxseed - maybe because he got into some sort of "philisophical" squable with others somewhere who were touting flaxseed and he wants to pay as "minimum lip service" to flaxseed as possible... who knows ... but I also do find it odd ]
Here is the clearest advice - straight from the "doctor's" mouth - that I have been able to find regarding this :
FROM PG 247 The OmegaRx Zone
[ you may want to read the whole page - I've tried to boil it down to the "issue at hand" and pulled out only that which applies ]
...This is why human studies have indicated that the efficiency of making EPA from ALA is extremely limited. Therefore, if you want to get the greatest benefit of EPA, it will have to come from eating fish oil as opposed to vegetable sources rich in ALA [ such as flaxseed]...
... AS long as you are consuming VERY MODERATE [ MY capitalization - not Dr.Sears ] amounts of omega-6 fatty acids with adequate levels of EPA, the dietary omega-6 fatty acids tend to accumulate at the level of DGLA [ because of the inhibition of the delta 5-desaturase by the EPA], and this increases the production of "good"eicosanoids...
[end of edited quote ]
...AS long as you are consuming VERY MODERATE [ MY capitalization again ] amounts of omega-6 fatty acids with adequate levels of EPA,...
Talk about a VAGUE STATEMENT !
1. I think I assume correctly that when he [Dr.Sears] states: ...VERY MODERATE [ MY capitalization ] amounts of omega-6 fatty acids with adequate levels of EPA,...
- he is still referring to Flaxseed ? YES ?
He [ in the complete paragraphs on pg 247 ] had been talking about flaxseed but it is NOT ENTIRELY CLEAR that he is STILL talking about it when he makes the above statement.
2. Assuming he IS talking about flaxseed, there is still lots of grist for confusion and vagueness :
Ok - so it IS flaxseed you are talking about - JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "VERY MODERATE" AMOUNTS ???????????
THE ENVELOPE PLEASE !@#%@!!@
FURTHERMORE :
When the good doctor states :
... the dietary omega-6 fatty acids tend to accumulate at the level of DGLA [ because of the inhibition of the delta 5-desaturase by the EPA], and this increases the production of "good"eicosanoids...
- it seems to me he is saying that, in the end, flaxseed [ if that is still what he is referring to - and I interpret it that he IS ] that flaxseed, therefore, in spite of his other immediate vague and confusing musings, STIMULATES THE PRODUCTION OF "GOOD" EICOSANOIDS - which - is just what we are after.
SO ...
then why does he put what seems TO ME as a clear LIMITING factor of, "in VERY MODERATE amounts" - and then no indication or guideline as to what "VERY MODERATE" means ?????
Talk about leading you into the "jungle of vagueness" and leaving you "hanging from the vine of confusion".
If in the end we are stimulating increased production of "good" eicosanoids - why not "the more the merrier" ?
MOREOVER - if as the good doctor has CLEARY STATED, ON THE OTHER HAND in many places, that, the conversion of EFA's into EPA and DHA via Omega 6 fatty acids in general and Flaxseed [eventually DGLA } in particular, is very inefficient in comparison to fish oil, it would seem to clearly follow by Dr.Sear's own advice that the amount of "good" eicosanoid production that would result - would also be VERY LIMITED in comparison.
SO - if you are only VERY MODERATLEY at best [according to him ] INCREASING "good eicosanoid" production via the use of flaxseed - I can't make any sense of the admonition to be using it in "VERY MODERTE" amounts in the first place - AND -
even more frustratingly :
just exactly PLEASE - do you mean by "VERY MODERATE" amounts ?????
Hope you or someone [ maybe the "good doctor himself" ?] can clear this up for me.
Thanks,
E.Wally
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Sue
Posts:4177
Zoner
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| 07/07/2008 7:56 AM |
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Any discussion regarding "conversion" is irrelevant because no conversion is necessary when consuming fish oil. It's components are already in the form used by the human body.
Eisosanoids must exist in a balance. It is detrimental to have either too many "good" , or too many "bad".
As I am informed, Barry Sears considers flax as being inferior to fish oil in regard to a fat supplement because of the short chain omega 3's and the omega 6's it contains. He's also written that a spoonful of flax seed added once a day for the fiber is fine. this is ont contradictory because the availablilty of the oil is highly limited when consuming the whole seed.
I would stick with the whole seed, though you probably won't be benefitting from the lignans, which might be your intention to do in regard to the colon. |
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sue
lost 100 lbs 13 yrs ago, off BP meds, thanks to the Zone diet and Zone fish oil!
for more photos, scroll over this photo and click when the link appears
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E.Wally
Posts:271
Zoner
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| 07/07/2008 3:36 PM |
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Sue,
Thanks for the repsonse but I think in attempting to illustrate the sources of my confusion I only created some myself.
[from my original post] :
I am very aware of the fact that flaxseed OIL - and of course GROUND flaxseed - do not convert nearly as readily as fish oil into the biochemicals [ EPA/DHA ] and control of the biochemical reactions that we are after in The Zone.
I am NOT relying on GROUND flaxseed for that - I am and have been always supplementing with Fish oil.
[end of quote ]
The point of my query is this :
If you follow the train of thought and copy on pg 249 as noted above here's what it comes down to :
On one hand the admonishment a person should be consumeing - and I quote : "...very moderate amounts.." of Flaxseed
No indication whatsoever as what amount is "very moderate"
"very moderate" leaves a lot of room for interpretation.
On the other hand - the lengthy illustration and emphasis of how very little of the DGLA is converted into EPA/DHA.
If, and allow me to paraphrase please, if such a tiny infintesimal amount is converted it would seem that using a "fair amount" of ground flaxseed would hardly be a problem -
HOWEVER,
when you attempt to deduce what the amount of flaxseed is that would be ok - you end up trying to figure out what is meant by "..very moderate ..."
which is no more vague than MY desire to increase consumption of ground flaxseed by a "fair amount" would be.
What quantity am I talking about when I say : "fair amount" ?
E.Wally |
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Sue
Posts:4177
Zoner
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| 07/07/2008 4:47 PM |
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Hi E. Wally,
In my copy of "The Omega Rx Zone", the passage you're quoting specifically states: " As long as you are consuming very moderate amounts of omega-6 fatty acids..." It appears in a paragraph that explains why long chain omega 3's are important to the Zone diet, not as part fo a discussion pertaining specificallyto eating flax seed. IMO he's refers to the omega 6 in the diet in general (from both plant and animal sources). As we all know, in the Zone we try to avoid adding omega 6 fats/oils, except for sesame oil. Flax receives mention several paragraphs earlier, only as an example of a vegetable source of ALA. IMO, add a spoonful of whole unground seed once a day if you like, but skip flax oil. This will allow you to eat some of the flax seed you desire, while being exposed to the least amount of the omega 6 oil in it. |
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sue
lost 100 lbs 13 yrs ago, off BP meds, thanks to the Zone diet and Zone fish oil!
for more photos, scroll over this photo and click when the link appears
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E.Wally
Posts:271
Zoner
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| 07/08/2008 12:44 PM |
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Sue,
I more than agree with you that the quote and paragraph on pg 249 is not a discussion of the use of flaxseed.
I ended up there in attempting to find some reference/guidance regarding the AMOUNT of ground flaxseed that would be generally advised to incorporate into a Zone Diet.
It's the only thing I could find quite frankly and if anything it only adds confusion.
As CranberryCat mentions, and as the result of my search through my books and the website, there is a surprising LACK of information/guidance in this regard.
In attempting to decipher what the good doctor is referring to there I have read and re-read the page numerous times and I agree one interpretation is that he is NOT referrring to flaxseed [ although he mentions it ] and is referring to at as an "example" of something that contains Omega 6.
It could also be interpreted the other way.
This is the problem.
You end up coming back to what he means by "very moderate amounts" - and I really have no idea at all what amount he had in mind when he made that statement.
I've been consuming about 1 tblsp, sometimes more per day for years for benefits other than Zone related.
Since the discovery of polyps for the second time at a colonoscopy I have re-examined "colon health" and it seems that ground flaxseed is recommended more than ever as a preventative measure.
I'm inclined to increase the amount of ground flaxseed in my diet substantially, and, except for the "very moderate amount" can find no clear guidance from "Zone sources" to date.
Is it possible to forward this question to Dr.Sears ?
E.Wally
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Sue
Posts:4177
Zoner
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| 07/08/2008 1:22 PM |
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| You could contact Wellness Support(see "Contact Us" below), or submit the qn to Ask the Dr on DrSears.com. He's written in the past the it's ok to eat a tablespoon of flax seed daily. I doubt he's going to recommend consuming quantities above that on a regular basis. |
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sue
lost 100 lbs 13 yrs ago, off BP meds, thanks to the Zone diet and Zone fish oil!
for more photos, scroll over this photo and click when the link appears
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Cranberrycat
Posts:2004
Zoner
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| 07/30/2008 10:06 PM |
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Sorry, E. Wally, I totally missed your post on this thread. Must have been while my brother-in-law was in the hospital for his surgery (not sure if I had shared this, but he went to surgery to have a tumor removed-they opened him up and closed him right away, it was inoperable. Then, he had a few readmissions to the hospital because he wasn't doing very well after surgery).
Anyway, I didn't really have a chance to read everything here.
I don't think that the ground flax seed issue was ever resolved.
We had a discussion going on about using it back a few months ago. I think the thread title was "Flatulence and Constipation". I had jumped into the middle of the discussion and suggested the use of ground flax seed as a source of fiber. I believe I had also mentioned that I was using it MAINLY for fiber, as I was already getting my omega 3's from fish oil. If I can find a link to the thread, I will post it for you. |
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Cranberrycat
We don't own the earth; we borrow it from our children.
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